Premiere Elite-MOCA Support

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by aadam101, Oct 3, 2011.

  1. Oct 3, 2011 #1 of 25
    aadam101

    aadam101 Tell me a joke

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    For some reason, I still have trouble understanding how MOCA works. I have Verizon FIOS and I currently use my own Netgear router with a second Netgear router in repeater mode (due to the size of my house).

    I noticed that the Elite says "MoCA® support (including MoCA bridge)"

    What exactly does this mean? If I switch to the Verizon MOCA router and I just connect a regular old coax cable to the Elite, I will be connected to the internet???

    Does anyone know if Verizon offers an N router yet? The one that I have is a G router and I definitely don't want that.
     
  2. Oct 3, 2011 #2 of 25
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Verizon has an N router. But you could also just get an access point. I have four access points in my condo so all my wireless devices have plenty of bandwidth.
     
  3. Oct 3, 2011 #3 of 25
    news4me2

    news4me2 Member

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    YES, if you were using a Verizon MOCA router, you could simply connect the Elite to your Coax cable and skip any Wireless or Ethernet connection. Using MOCA, the Elite will have access to the Internet thru the Verizon MOCA Router.

    If you don't use a MOCA Router, you will still be able to use your current Wireless Repeater to connect to the Ethernet port on the Elite.

    Lastly, the MOCA bridge allows the Elite to use the coax cable to support a downstream Preview box (or any older Tivo box that is using an external MOCA device for networking).
     
  4. Oct 4, 2011 #4 of 25
    matt@thehickmans

    matt@thehickmans Hemo_jr

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    MoCA goes up to layer 2 only. This means that it can only natively communicate with devices on a local network. I assume by the inclusion of the term 'router' in the 'Verizon MoCA router' that it will enable an MoCA device to communicate over the Internet. (But I would double check on that). I would also assume that the TiVo Elite should not be configured as an MoCA bridge if you connect to it using an MoCA router.

    Anyone know if an MoCA router encapsulates MoCA frames, translates or what?
     
  5. Oct 4, 2011 #5 of 25
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    MoCA is still kind of new, so yeah it's confusing.

    The Vz routers natively support wireless, ethernet and Moca... It doesn't seem to care which path data takes, they're all part of the same network, and then the router talks to the ONT and that's how everything gets it's outside connection.

    So in theory on a Fios setup, a MoCA'ed Elite SHOULD be able to talk to a wireless or ethernet Tivo without a problem since it's all on the same network.

    I have a computer connected over a MoCA-to-Ethernet bridge, works great. The Vz router sees the computer and it just works with no extra setup. The Elite should be the same way.

    Only one heads-up... To spare some folks the headache in advance... When using Vz's router, the router itself is the moca bridge. The Elite is a user/client/whatever they call it. There's likely to be a setting of some kind to adjust this.
     
  6. Oct 4, 2011 #6 of 25
    socrplyr

    socrplyr Active Member

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    Verizon's router is very similar regular router that you would buy at a local store with an internal bridge to MoCA. It really isn't confusing... You don't really need to know anything about the types of things you are mentioning. When they talk about MoCA being local only, what they mean is on a cable network you won't be transmitting things to the world with it. This is important due to the fact that the cabling used is the same as your cable operator (thus could support transmitting to the world if MoCA allowed). Thus just like WiFi, Ethernet, Ethernet over powerline, and Ethernet over phoneline; MoCA is designed to be used for local area networks, not wide area networks. Now, just like your WiFi and regular Ethernet, you can share the internet onto MoCA...
     
  7. Oct 4, 2011 #7 of 25
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Why kind of speeds does the FiOS MoCA connection get? I never tested mine since I had them set me up with Ethernet four years ago. I have two Dlink MoCA devices but I only get around 70Mbps between the two devices which is expected according to SmallNetBuilder. With those if I had a third one the total bandwidth would increase to over 100Mbps.
    I only use it for my alarm system and VOIP but I could not use it for my TiVos since 70Mbps is too slow since my current Premieres get 85Mbps to 95Mbps transfer rates over my gigabit backbone.
     
  8. Oct 4, 2011 #8 of 25
    skillmey

    skillmey New Member

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    The Actiontec MoCA router has the wireless, Ethernet, and MoCA connections bridged (i.e. Layer 2 connectivity). If you have the Actiontec router, you just need to plug in the Elite and make sure the MoCA is enabled. There are Wireless-N versions of the Actiontec router. If the router is connected to the internet, any MoCA connection will have internet connectivity.

    The MoCA frame encapsulates multiple Ethernet frames, but this is seamless. All the MoCA, wireless and Ethernet devices are bridged together (this is LAN). The Actiontec router uses a separate MoCA or Ethernet WAN connection to connect to the ONT (and internet)

    There is no concept of a 'user/client' with MoCA (there is a network coordinator, but for connectivity, all nodes are peers and no configuration is required).

    Regarding throughput, MoCA 1.0 provides >130Mbps and MoCA 1.1 provides >175Mbps of 'aggregate' UDP throughput. for example, a MoCA 1.1 network could support >8 video streams of 20Mbps each (total, not per node). Other limitations arise from TCP-IP (and latency), when 10/100M Ethernet connections are used (hence the lower rates reported by smallnetbuilder), packet size, etc.

    My way of thinking about it.... 11g can't support a single 20Mbps video stream. 11n can support a couple streams in the same room (but not between distant rooms in a house), MoCA can support at least 5 reliably. Unlike Netflix's compressed, variable ~5Mbps video streams, the service providers are usng ~20Mbps MPEG2. Fast forward requires a multiple of that throughput.
     
  9. Oct 4, 2011 #9 of 25
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    Fios allows 1 moca bridge in a network (the main router). Learned this the hard way when adding additional actiontec routers around the house. I don't know what the terminology is for the correct setting (Access Point maybe?), and the Elite may or may not be smart enough to self-configure, but if not, Fios router users using moca won't want Elite to be set up as a bridge. They'll want... whatever isn't the bridge. ;) user/client/access point/whatever.
     
  10. aadam101

    aadam101 Tell me a joke

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    So wait. If I understand you, I can use my Netgear router. The Tivo Elite can act as the MoCa bridge and provide my home with a MoCa connection?
     
  11. BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    In most people's cases, not having an existing moca network, the Elite would be a bridge for the Preview or another theoretical moca device that the Elite could talk to. But I don't know about any devices beyond that.
     
  12. Aero 1

    Aero 1 Active Member

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    Huh? Fios allows 7 moca devices on it's version of the protocol. I have two actionetec routers on my network. The main rev d router with wireless b and the rev f actiontec wireless n router acting as a bridge.

    http://www.dslreports.com/faq/verizonfios/3.2_MOCA
     
  13. BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    7 moca devices. But only 1 bridge. You change a bunch of settings and essentially make the additional ones Access Points, correct? Ditto for the Elite. That's all I'm trying to explain. Poorly, apparently. :)
     
  14. Aero 1

    Aero 1 Active Member

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    7. All moca devices are bridges. There is no such thing as moca access points. Older fios installs are based on moca 1.0 that only allow 7 devices. The new routers apparently are or will be moca 1.1 and that will allow 16 bridges.

    http://mocablog.net/faq/

    Now, it has to be seen if the elite will allow it to be a full pass through bridge. Meaning if it will get it's network connectivity through coax and allowing another Ethernet device connected to it's Ethernet port to obtain a separate ip address from the dhcp pool (handed out by the main moca router) to allow it get network access.
     
  15. aadam101

    aadam101 Tell me a joke

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    So a MoCa router will be required no matter what?
     
  16. BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    In any event, regardless of the terminology, there's potential for confusion based on whether or not there is an existing moca network. Fios router users should be mindful that the Vz router is a moca bridge, so setup the Elite as just a simple moca device with coax only. 86 any other possible settings or connections that can/will bork the network. Just file it under "keep it in mind" once Elites start getting out. ;)
     
  17. Aero 1

    Aero 1 Active Member

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    I'm going to say yes since you need the primary router to give out dhcp addresses to Ethernet LAN and moca LAN devices. Or you can use one of those moca kits from drink and what not. You need a minimum of 2 moca devices in order to bridge the LAN over coax.

    Remember, the elite is marketed to MSOs and QAM only systems, and moat MSOs are doing home dvr setup which work via moca.
     
  18. matt@thehickmans

    matt@thehickmans Hemo_jr

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    Well a TiVo needs to make it's daily call, get software updates and otherwise communicate with TiVo.com's Internet servers. Since MoCA has no idea what an IP address is, nor a domain name and only has the ability to communicate locally on a LAN, an MoCA router would have to know how to figure out that the TiVo wants to have its communications routed over the Internet and where that needs to go. Probably if this happens, it happens by the TiVo encapsulating IP in the MoCA frame and the MoCA router stripping out the IP content and forwarding that over the Internet.
     
  19. lgerbarg

    lgerbarg New Member

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    Totally incorrect, I used to run 4 bridges on home network. Hell, a normally configured Moca Router actually has two bridges coming off the same port (one in MoCA WAN mode talking to the ONT, one in MoCA LAN mode talking to the STBs).

    What you can't have is multiple routers fighting over who talks to the ONT, or bridge loops. In my case I used my router as a bridge, to route IP onto my CoAX. I then plugged 3 other bridges into the coax in my house and hung various devices and wifi base stations off them, all of which connected back to the router over their bridges via the coax (my house is old and has 14 inch thick walls which interfere with wifi and make running new cable a PITA).

    Assuming the Elite is setup in anything resembling a reasonable way then what most FiOS users will observe is that they do not need to plug in its ethernet port in order to get guide data or do MRV (since it will just get an IP over MoCA from the router, just like all FiOS STBs do), and that if they have other ethernet devices next to the Elite they will be able to use its ethernet port as an uplink back to the router.
     
  20. BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to get at, I just didn't have a grasp of the terminology. There's potential for some network issues if set up incorrectly, mainly by folks that don't know that the Vz router does moca natively (i.e. most people have no idea what it is). We know this but there is guaranteed to be some posts from Fios folks wondering why their network is screwed up. My heart is in the right place to try to warn them in advance, anyway. lol.
     

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