POE Filter Fails with MoCA

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by hsutton4, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. hsutton4

    hsutton4 New Member

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    Dec 10, 2006

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    I have been an avid Tivo kinda guy for 20+ years. But never attempted MoCA until now. I have a Premiere XL (purchased 2010) in a location with no ethernet connectivity so I've been using the WiFi G Router slow but at least it's something. The power supply failed and I shipped it off to Weakness for repair. They also replaced the 10 year old 1TB HD with a new 2TB. I asked if anyway to upgrade the wifi router and was told no but I could purchase a Tivo Bridge for MoCA. I did get it working and it's great, but I read where a POE filter is paramount so I ordered a Tivo POE Filter from amazon and installed it. But that action killed the MoCA connectivity. I removed the POE filter and it's working fine once again. Is it absolutely necessary that I have the POE filter installed and if so, what can I do to make it work. I read where opening up ports on my router might resolve the issue so following that info I hoped several ports but no change. Within a few minutes I received notification from my Xfinity XFi app that several external IP addresses known to be malicious have been blocked from US, Germany, India and China. So I shut the ports back down. They did not seem to help the situation anyway. Any suggestions on putting the POE filter back in and still have MoCA connectivity?
     
  2. keithg1964

    keithg1964 Ragonk

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    Where are you placing the MOCA filter. It should not be between any TiVos. It need to be on the line going to the outside connection.
     
  3. hsutton4

    hsutton4 New Member

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    I purchased the POE Filter from amazon (Amazon.com: TiVo Authorized MoCA/Point of Entry (PoE) Filter: Home Audio & Theater). The coaxial Comcast/Xfinity cable coming in from the outside is connected to the POE Filter which in turn is connected to a new splitter. The two coaxial cables on the other side of the splitter go to my router and to another Tivo in the office next to the router. FYI in a third room I have a Roamio Tivo (6-tuner) with bult-in MoCA. It is also working along with the remote Premiere Tivo. Both fail when the filter is in place. When the POE Filter is removed and the Comcast coaxial from the outside goes directly into the splitter, both boxes have MoCA.
     
  4. kpeters59

    kpeters59 Well-Known Member

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    Can you sketch out a wiring diagram?

    Also, what model number is the Xfinity connected Router/Gateway?

    -KP
     
  5. dianebrat

    dianebrat wait.. I did what? TCF Club

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    Random guess, this is the exact symptom you get if it's installed at the ingress point backwards
     
  6. snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

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    If the splitter only feeds the router+TiVo in the office, and you have a Roamio and Premiere in other rooms, then those other TiVo's are probably connected to a splitter in a junction box outside the house. You need to move the PoE filter to the input of the splitter that is in the junction box.
     
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  7. hsutton4

    hsutton4 New Member

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    KP thanks for offering to assist. Sorry for delay. The Xfinity Modem info I see is ARRIS Group Model TG1682G with Hardware Revision 12.0.

    I did a (semi-crude) diagram sketch in Excel. Here's a snapshot:

    upload_2021-2-20_11-24-14.png
     
  8. hsutton4

    hsutton4 New Member

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    Oh so the POE Filter needs to go outside the house where the Comcast cable initially connects to the splitters? One goes to the upstairs Office (where the router is); one goes to the downstairs Cinema Room in Den (Roamio) and inside the house they split that coaxial to run one to the Premiere XL in the Dining Room which is where I installed the MoCA Tivo Bridge.
     
  9. snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

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    Think of the splitters and coax as forming a tree that branches downward so that each TiVo/Mini is a "leaf" of the tree. A MoCA device can only communicate with another MoCA device if both are "downstream" from the same PoE filter. The PoE filter blocks MoCA signals from going upstream, while reflecting/enhancing signals from the MoCA devices that are downstream. So, the PoE should usually be attached to the root of the tree, where the Comcast feed connects to the first splitter.

    The PoE filter can be positioned at a point other than the root only if all MoCA devices are downstream from where the PoE is placed. Placing the PoE at the lowest point in the tree that is still upstream from all MoCA devices will give the strongest MoCA signals throughout the MoCA network.

    Please ask for clarification if that explanation was confusing in any way.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
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  10. hsutton4

    hsutton4 New Member

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    Thanks for your detailed explanation Snerd. I will be reading it again. When the directions said to connect it to the cable coming in from the outside, I took that literally. I thught I would not be going outside where the cable from the street comes in to splitters branching off to different rooms. I was thinking where the cable comes in from the upstairs office from outside (but of course it's also a branch off the outside splitters). The one thing I am trying to understand is difference between MoCA upstream and downstream. but let me just ask a basic question about POE Filter. Is it completely necessary to have one installed? What is the possible impact with not using the POE Filter?
     
  11. snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

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    Good question. You may be able to get by without a PoE filter. I have a brother who uses MoCA without a PoE filter, without any issues. It depends in part on how long the coax runs are, and how well the splitters play with MoCA signals.

    The PoE has two distinct benefits. The first benefit is that it confines the MoCA signals to your own network. Without a PoE filter, it is possible (but not necessarily likely) that your neighbors could spy on your MoCA network, so this is a security benefit.

    The second benefit of the PoE filter is that it boosts the strength of the MoCA signals by preventing signal energy from "leaking" to the outside world. This can make a big difference, especially if your splitters are not specifically designed to support MoCA.

    You could try removing the PoE completely to see if your network will work without a PoE. However, I always recommend using a PoE filter because using one will usually provide a significant improvement in the MoCA signals, which minimizes the chance of having problems.

    One last caveat: having a splitter in an external junction box may cause your MoCA signals to be relatively weak. So, if you have problems even though you have a PoE in place, you might need to upgrade to MoCA rated splitters both inside the house an in the junction box.
     
  12. hsutton4

    hsutton4 New Member

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    Dec 10, 2006
    Thanks for all that info. To make this all clear, I have a total of 4 Tivo boxes in the house. The three previously mentioned (upstairs office, downstairs den and dining room, and 4th Tivo in the upstairs master bedroom. It is like the situation was in the dining room in that both locations do not have ethernet feed, just the old Tivo Wireless G Router. The Roamio in the den has MoCA built-in so once I installed the Tivo MoCA Bridge at the router and downstairs at the dinning room Tivo, as well as the den, they worked great. I did several tests remotely playing a recording from different tivos that had MoCA as well as the office Tivo that has a direct ethernet connection to the router. Also shows transferred fast and play back was excellent. But when the POE Filter arrived a few days later and I put it at the first point-of-entry at the office upstairs, MoCA failed. When I removed the POE Filter MoCA was restored. I am now going to order an additional Tivo MoCA Bridge for the master bedroom Tivo 3 boxes will be using MoCA and the office Tivo already has direct ethernet feed. I am going to not touch the outside stuff. It's been untouched for years and I don't want to even go there. Thanks so much for all the info. This has been a huge eye opener. I've heard about MoCA off and on for years but never thought I would use it and here I am. No more buffering and getting an on-screen notification that network is too slow to continue and this transfer has been canceled. Thanks again!
     
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  13. mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    I don't have anything to add except I'm shocked at how much POE filters cost now. I bought some just last year for less than $2. I wonder what's going on?

    I got rid of all my Tivos a few years ago, but still use Moca everyday. It's a great networking solution for us with old houses prewired for coax. I personally use satellite diplexers in lieu of splitters and POE filters. While diplexers don't attenuate quite as well as POE filters, they're close enough for all practical purposes, plus they have much lower losses than traditional splitters.
     
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  14. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    You should get a “PoE” MoCA filter properly installed, both to secure your network and improve your MoCA network’s performance/efficiency, but also to preclude issues from neighboring MoCA networks, which may spring up.

    Depending on your provider, they may install one for you at no cost (Comcast typically does so).
     
  15. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    MoCA can be used beyond just TiVo connectivity if you have other devices that would benefit from wired network connections, in lieu of direct Ethernet connectivity to the router LAN. (The more traffic redirected from the wireless spectrum the better.)

    You can use standalone MoCA adapters connected to network switches to get multiple devices connected, and, where suitable, you can even leverage the built-in MoCA bridging of MoCA-capable TiVo DVRs that are configured only as MoCA clients to network co-located Ethernet-capable devices. (see here for more on networking add’l devices via a MoCA client-only TiVo DVR)
     
  16. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Diplexers aren’t really a simple substitute for splitters, of course.

    As for a diplexer substituting for a “PoE” MoCA filter, I’d be interested in whether the diplexer offered the same reflective properties supposedly valued in MoCA filters.
     
  17. bs0755

    bs0755 New Member

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    I came across this thread when researching connectivity issues with 2 of my Minis--The problem proved to be unrelated to MoCA directly, but it got me to rethinking my network setup in general....
    I have a pair of MoCA adapters (Tivo/Actiontec 2.0), an I am only using one with my Apple TV--When I purchased them, I was unsure whether I needed 1 or 2, and the pricing was better for the pair.

    In addition to the Apple TV, I have two Roamios, as well as several Minis--one of which is a Mini Lux. During my research process, I thought I read somewhere where you alluded to the fact that it is desirable to use separate adapters to form a MoCA network, as opposed to the ones in the Tivo boxes. If that is true, what are the advantages, other than the availability of MoCA 2.0? (I currently have the Mini Lux connected via ethernet, but coax is available, and the Apple TV is currently connected to an older spare TV and does not require the higher speed.)
     
  18. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Availability. That is, a stand-alone MoCA adapter is less likely to require a reboot than a TiVo DVR. (And I’d say “function as the main MoCA/Ethernet bridge,” rather than “form a MoCA network,” since it’s the main bridge in question.)

    The case for a stand-alone bridge improves as the use case for MoCA grows beyond TiVo-to-TiVo streaming.
     
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  19. bs0755

    bs0755 New Member

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    Makes sense--Thanks!

    Regarding your suggestion above regarding leveraging the built in MoCA bridging of Tivos configured as clients:

    My two Roamios are in the same room--If I configure both as clients, could I connect them to each other via Ethernet, or should I leave them both connected separately to my router?
     
  20. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    You would NOT want to have them both connected and configured as MoCA clients and then also linked to each other via Ethernet, as the loop created would confuse your networking. In that setup, you’d need to disable MoCA on one of the DVRs.

    Really, since both need to be connected to the coax, regardless, for the TV signal, having them both configured as MoCA clients is simplest, then you can use one or both to provide Ethernet connections for *other* co-located devices.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
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