Pioneer DVR-810H Hard Drive upgrade

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by ALSaul_2000, Mar 16, 2011.

  1. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    Pioneer DVR-810H Hard Drive upgrade

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am having problems upgrading my Hard Drive to a Western Digital 500GB. I have seen similar questions posted here, but did not find a solution [though I may have missed it]. l have tried both IDE and SATA Drives - imaged from the original [and still working] Samsung Hard Drive. I have used the SATA Bridge bought from Weaknees, as well as a SYBA SY-IDE-SATAHD IDE to SATA Device Adapter, which appears to work on other TiVO's. I know Western Digital's Master/Single/Slave jumper settings are different from most other manufactures, and have tried all possible combinations - to no avail.

    My frustration is increasing as my patience is decreasing. I would truly appreciate any insight anyone can provide.

    Thanks for the help
     
  2. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    Are those WD drives Caviar Blues?

    Is that TiVo basically a Series 1?

    What's the chipset on that SYBA?

    Did you read

    "List of SATA to PATA (IDE) adapters, please add yours"

    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=416883

    before you started buying stuff?
     
  3. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    Thanks for the reply unitron. The Hard-Drives are from the Western Digital AV Series, built for DVR devices – that is one of the reasons why I am so frustrated. I have an IDE version where I have tried the Drive as a MASTER / SINGLE / SLAVE – and Cable Select. I have an almost identical SATA version, also of the Western Digital AV Series, and yes, I did read that “List of SATA to PATA” thread (among others) – and both the Weakness as well as the SYBA SATA-IDE Bridge are listed as working, as are a number of other Western Digital Hard-Drives. This is why I am asking the Community for help, I do not know what to do/try next. Did I miss something on that or some other thread? What am I missing?
     
  4. jtreid

    jtreid Member

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    What exactly is not working? I've had four of the Pioneers in the past and upgraded all but one without any problem at all. Mind you, I used IDE for all the upgrades, but it was really very painless and straight forward.
     
  5. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    The DVR just gets "stuck" at the gray "Welcome - Powering Up" display, but works fine as soon as I reboot using the original Samsung drive.
     
  6. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    You aren't giving us enough information, and enough specific information, to diagnose at a distance.

    What are the sizes, model numbers, and IDE or SATA of the drives involved, including the original (assuming that it is the original)?

    Is the original the original original, or was a previous upgrade done?

    Tivopedia says it's supposed to have an 80GB Maxtor.

    Exactly what software are you using to copy (or whatever) to the new drive?

    What command string are you using?


    Is the DVD drive on the same ribbon cable as the hard drive? Is it jumpered master or slave or cable select?

    Is that/are those 40 pin 40 conductor cables or 40 pin 80 conductor cables with a black plug at one end, a grey one about 6 inches back from the black one and a blue one about 12 inches away from the grey one?

    That Weaknees adapter (JMicron chipset) apparently works for some other people on that model TiVo, couldn't find any mention of the SYBA.
     
  7. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    You aren't giving us enough information, and enough specific information, to diagnose at a distance.
    I apologize. I sometimes forget how difficult it is to Trouble-Shoot by “Remote Control”. Let me see if I can answer all your questions more fully.
    _________________________________________________________________________

    What are the sizes, model numbers, and IDE or SATA of the drives involved, including the original (assuming that it is the original)?
    PATA: WD5000AVJB
    SATA: WD5000AAVS

    Is the original the original original, or was a previous upgrade done?
    Samsung SP6124N – I agree this may not be the original since it is not a Maxtor and it is 160GB, but it is what I found when I opened it up

    Exactly what software are you using to copy (or whatever) to the new drive?
    MFSTools 2.0 recently bought from DRVUpgrade – it’s Universal CD software
    - AND -
    MFS Live
    _________________________________________________________________________
    What command string are you using?
    MFSTools 2.0:
    - Initially, with the original SP6124N as Seconary Master and the WD5000’s as Primary Master, I tired: “mfsbackup -Tao - /dev/hdc | mfsrestore -r 4 -s 127 -xzpi - /dev/hda”
    - Then, after mounting a MSDOS Hard Drive, I tried the two steps separately:
    “mfsbackup -f 9999 -6so /mnt/dos/DVR810H.bak /dev/hdc”
    followed by:
    “mfsrestore -r 4 -s 127 -bzpi /mnt/dos/ DVR810H.bak /dev/hda”
    MFSLive: I tried: MFSCopy, then I tired Backing up the Image and the Kernel and attempted to restore to the WD5000’s from the Image, and when that failed, I tried just the Kernel
    ________________________________________________________________________
    Is the DVD drive on the same ribbon cable as the hard drive? Is it jumpered master or slave or cable select?
    No, the DVD [DVR-106-XB] is on it’s own cable it has NO Jumper. I left it like this since it does work with the “original” SP6124 Hard Drive.
    _________________________________________________________________________
    Is that/are those 40 pin 40 conductor cables or 40 pin 80 conductor cables with a black plug at one end, a grey one about 6 inches back from the black one and a blue one about 12 inches away from the grey one?
    They appear to be two individual 80-wire ribbon cables with black connectors on the end. I really can not tell about the other end(s) as they are underneath the Hard-Drive DVD-ROM mounting bracket, which I have not removed
    _________________________________________________________________________
    That Weaknees adapter (JMicron chipset) apparently works for some other people on that model TiVo, couldn't find any mention of the SYBA.
    The SYBA has the same JM20330 chipset as on the Weaknees adapter
     
  8. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    With the power cord of the TiVo NOT plugged in, use a dental mirror or something and make sure that those two drive data cables are indeed two separate cables, each with their own place to plug into the motherboard.

    The black plug is supposed to be the Master on a cable select cable, with a grey plug for Slave (if present) and a blue (or sometimes green) plug at the motherboard/controller end.

    They're probably observing convention, but best to make sure.

    EDIT: I was mistaken when I said earlier "Those two drives are Caviar Blues." They aren't, but the model numbers are similar enough that relying on memory deceived me.

    It is still true that Series 1s don't like Caviar Blues for some reason.

    END EDIT

    I'm not sure if MFS Tools is okay with LBA48 drives or not.
    Use the MFS Live cd v1.4 instead just to be on the safe side.

    Boot with it and just the Samsung hooked up.

    Do

    pdisk -l /dev/hd? where the 'l' is a lowercase "L" and ? is wherever the Samsung is attached.

    See if you have an S1 or an S2 partition layout.

    The S1 will have a partition map as the first partition and then, starting at sector 64, will be bootstrap1 or root1 or kernel1, I forget which, whereas the S2 will have one of the MFS media partitions as the second partition.

    If your TiVo is supposed to use the S2 layout, that's what the -p option for the restore command is for.

    If the Samsung has the wrong layout (and since it's apparently not the original original drive, it might), then it might work but not let you get a good backup image (I learned this the hard way).

    Is the Samsung jumpered for Master or Cable Select (when it's in the TiVo and working properly)?

    Whichever it is, jumper the 500GB IDE drive the same way (which will be no jumper for Master and one jumper all the way to the right next to the power input for Cable Select) for use in the TiVo.

    Try the Samsung as hda (and nothing else connected) and then boot with the MFS Live cd and try

    backup -Tao /dev/null /dev/hda

    and see if you get any error messages and report back.

    This will, or at least should, cause the backup command to run with /dev/hda as its source and dump its output into a cyber black hole for test purposes.
     
  9. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    OK - lots for me to do - but lots of good info. tks unitron, I will try to tackle this on Sunday
     
  10. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    In the meantime, use the free version of TiVo Desktop to copy off any shows you want to save, just in case.


    And see my edit of my previous post.
     
  11. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    With the power cord of the TiVo NOT plugged in, use a dental mirror or something and make sure that those two drive data cables are indeed two separate cables, each with their own place to plug into the motherboard.

    The black plug is supposed to be the Master on a cable select cable, with a grey plug for Slave (if present) and a blue (or sometimes green) plug at the motherboard/controller end.

    They're probably observing convention, but best to make sure.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    After quite a bit disassembling – I was able to see cables, there are two separated cables, connected to two different locations on the circuit board, with a Blue connector plug on the circuit board side and a black plug on the Hard Drive / CD-ROM device side – using 80-wire ribbon cables
    ________________________________________________________________________
    I'm not sure if MFS Tools is okay with LBA48 drives or not.
    Use the MFS Live cd v1.4 instead just to be on the safe side.

    Boot with it and just the Samsung hooked up.

    Do

    pdisk -l /dev/hd? where the 'l' is a lowercase "L" and ? is wherever the Samsung is attached.

    See if you have an S1 or an S2 partition layout.

    The S1 will have a partition map as the first partition and then, starting at sector 64, will be bootstrap1 or root1 or kernel1, I forget which, whereas the S2 will have one of the MFS media partitions as the second partition.

    If your TiVo is supposed to use the S2 layout, that's what the -p option for the restore command is for.

    If the Samsung has the wrong layout (and since it's apparently not the original original drive, it might), then it might work but not let you get a good backup image (I learned this the hard way).
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I get the following display:
    #: type name length base ( size )
    1: Apple_partition_map Apple 63 @ 1
    2: Image Bootstrap 1 4096 @ 64 ( 2.0M)
    3: Image Kernel 1 4096 @ 4160 ( 2.0M)
    I can provide all 14 entries if you need, but the Bootstrap image does appear to have a base of 64, though I am not sure that is what you were referring to.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    Is the Samsung jumpered for Master or Cable Select (when it's in the TiVo and working properly)?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It is jumpered for “MASTER”
    _______________________________________________________________________

    Whichever it is, jumper the 500GB IDE drive the same way (which will be no jumper for Master and one jumper all the way to the right next to the power input for Cable Select) for use in the TiVo.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have tried MASTER – SLAVE – CableSelect – and Single [jumper removed]
    WITH and WITHOUT the CD-ROM attached – still gets stuck on “Power Up”
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Try the Samsung as hda (and nothing else connected) and then boot with the MFS Live cd and try

    backup -Tao /dev/null /dev/hda

    and see if you get any error messages and report back.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I did get a warning: “Warning: /proc/ide/hd?/settings interface is obsolete, and will be removed soon!”
    But that was the only warning

    Hope that helps - and thanks again for the time you have spent helping me. I know some people use these forums to get the info and then just leave, but I attempted everything I could think of before I even bothered u'all, and I just wanted you to know I appreicate your assistance
     
  12. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    semi-coastal NC
    You appear to have an S1 partition layout, but that seems to be an S2 machine.

    Since you don't have a Maxtor 80GB, I'm wondering if someone didn't upgrade to the Samsung without using the -p option. Did you buy this absolutely brand new?

    We need someone else with the same model that can tell us for sure which partition layout that machine is supposed to have.

    I've posted a shout for help in a couple of other places on the site.
     
  13. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    Roger that - thanks again for the assist
     
  14. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    Hey unitron - I have an update on this nightmare of mine. I went a bought another DVR-810H and was able to take that Hard Drive and use MFSLive to make a copy of the image on both the PATA: WD5000AVJB and the SATA: WD5000AAVS Hard Drives.

    Here is the kicker - it works from the PATA, but not with the SATA. I used both the SYBA and the Weaknees adapter, although I bought that Weakness adapter a couple of years ago and they may be selling a newer one. I am not sure of the difference since both the adapters have the same JM20330 chipset.

    I read the http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=416883 link, but a number of those adapters are no longer offered.

    My question to you is, what adapter would YOU get in this situation? A newer one from Weakness [I like those guys anyway], one of the ones that DVRUpgrade offers, or what?

    I appreciate everything you have done to help me get over this quagmire - I you could help me with this one last step. Thanks
     
  15. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    Maybe something I can do with the -- wdidle3 -- utility or the like? maybe it is the higher 3.0 transfer speed of the Hard Drive that is causing the adapter to fail?
     
  16. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if those drives even have the Intellipark feature/bug.

    As for 1.5 versus 3.0 (commonly known as SATA I versus SATA II, even though SATA II hasn't actually been defined by the official SATA industry group), there should be a jumper block, similar to a Master/Slave/Cable Select jumper block (although in the case of Western Digital it's more like Master/Master with Slave Present/Slave/Cable Select).

    If I remember correctly, but, then, I often don't, so let's cheat.

    http://www.wdc.com/en/library/eide/2579-001037.pdf

    Double check against the specific documentation for your specific drive for the 1.5 limit jumper setting.

    I'd go ahead and set it for 1.5, it can't hurt, cause the Tivo can't use the extra speed, and that way you don't have the drive waste time and electrons auto-negotiating.
     
  17. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    semi-coastal NC
    I assume that you are keeping the most recently acquired 810H hard drive safe from any danger of being overwritten?

    Is it a Maxtor 80GB, i.e., the original drive for that machine?

    Or is it perhaps a different, larger drive? But perhaps a different, larger drive that, when examined with pdisk and mfsinfo (from the MFS Live cd v1.4), shows itself to be masquerading as an 80GB drive (80 hours at basic quality)?

    I'm working on a theory, based on a combination of your experience and mine.

    Using the MFS Live cd, see what the partition layout on it is, specifically which partition starts on sector 64, so we'll know for sure whether a stock 810 comes with an S1 or an S2 partition layout.

    The Weaknees adapter appears to be the same one they've always offered.

    I've attempted to be of help to several people here lately, and kind of lost track of what I've said to which ones of them, and what I've asked of which ones of them, and what I've learned from which ones of them. So...


    Tell me about the computer with which you're doing the TiVo drive wrangling.

    How many IDE ports? That means how many places on the motherboard to plug the blue end of the 40 pin, 80 conductor cable, which means one port will support 2 IDE drives. (I'm writing for the benefit of future searchers as well, not insulting your intelligence)

    How many SATA ports?

    Is your cd (or cd capable dvd) drive PATA/IDE or SATA?

    Is this the same computer with which you get on the internet, or a separate machine?

    While I'm waiting for this info, see my answer to your other post about SATA speed.
     
  18. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    __________________________________________________________
    I assume that you are keeping the most recently acquired 810H hard drive safe from any danger of being overwritten?

    Is it a Maxtor 80GB, i.e., the original drive for that machine?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    YES SIR ! – It is a Maxtor 80GB, and not a new one. I have made a full copy with MFS-Live CD, a Kernel/Boot/Image copy with WinMFs.

    ___________________________________________________________

    Or is it perhaps a different, larger drive? But perhaps a different, larger drive that, when examined with pdisk and mfsinfo (from the MFS Live cd v1.4), shows itself to be masquerading as an 80GB drive (80 hours at basic quality)?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    No Sir – It looks like the Original “Real Deal” Drive
    ___________________________________________________________

    I'm working on a theory, based on a combination of your experience and mine.

    Using the MFS Live cd, see what the partition layout on it is, specifically which partition starts on sector 64, so we'll know for sure whether a stock 810 comes with an S1 or an S2 partition layout.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I apologize, I neglected to do this before I went to work – Will do so as soon as I get back home tonight and will let you know
    ____________________________________________________________

    The Weaknees adapter appears to be the same one they've always offered.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I was afraid of that – I wonder if buying the DVRUpgrade “Instant Cake” CD would make a difference, although if the same size IDE drive works, then I doubt buying that CD would make any difference
    ______________________________________________________________________

    I've attempted to be of help to several people here lately, and kind of lost track of what I've said to which ones of them, and what I've asked of which ones of them, and what I've learned from which ones of them. So...


    Tell me about the computer with which you're doing the TiVo drive wrangling.

    How many IDE ports? That means how many places on the motherboard to plug the blue end of the 40 pin, 80 conductor cable, which means one port will support 2 IDE drives. (I'm writing for the benefit of future searchers as well, not insulting your intelligence)

    How many SATA ports?

    Is your cd (or cd capable dvd) drive PATA/IDE or SATA?

    Is this the same computer with which you get on the internet, or a separate machine?

    While I'm waiting for this info, see my answer to your other post about SATA speed.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Not a problem – I am actually using two difference computers – Here are the specs:

    For the WinMFS:
    ASUS Striker Extreme MotherBoard
    X6800 Intel Dual-Core Processor
    8GB DDR2 RAM
    6 SATA Ports [2 Sata Ports in a RAID-1 Tri-BOOT, 1 Sata Port used for an Internal or External SATA Port, 3 Sata Ports in a RAID-5 for Data [i.e. TiVO images]
    1 IDE Channel [This is what I have been using for the TiVO Drives, but it is usually connected to a DVD/CD-ROM Burner]

    For the MFS Live CD:
    ASUS A7N8X-Deluxe MotherBoard
    XP2800 AMD Processor
    4GB DDR RAM
    4 SATA PORTS [2 on the MotherBoard – 2 on an I/O Card] None used for TiVO work
    2 IDE Channels typically configured as follows:
    Primary Master: Original TiVO Hard Drive
    Primary Slave: IDE DVD/CD-ROM Burner
    Secondary Master: NEW Hard Drive for TiVO imaging
    Secondary Slave: Usually not used

    These are completely different from my “Main Computer”, although ALL of them have Internet Access.

    This 3rd computer is configured as follows:

    ASUS Rampage Formula
    Q9650 Intel Quad-Core Processor
    8GB DDR3 RAM
    6 SATA Ports [3 Sata Ports in a RAID-5 System Boot, 3 Sata Ports in a RAID-5 for Data
    1 IDE Channel, used for DVD/CD-ROM Burner
    ____________________________________________________________

    I think that answers everything - I'll check on that other post - Thanks again for your time unitron - Take Care Sir
     
  19. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    As it happens, my "main" computer, until somewhat recently, was an ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe (I used to do my Tivo drive work on an old PCChips 748lmrt, which tolerated a lot more abuse than their poor reputation would have lead one to believe it could).

    When I "upgraded" from 98SE on that ASUS to XP on a new board, I did the XP upgrade first, and then copied to a new drive and put it in the new board (and boy was that an adventure I wouldn't wish on anyone), which left me with a "leftover" XP installation (which lets me run WinMFS on it) on that ASUS on a pair of 160GB SATA drives.

    The ASUS has a jumper to enable/disable the two SATA ports.

    The case it's in is old enough to have a "turbo" or, as it says, "mode", button, which operates a single pole double throw switch with 3 wires and a 3 hole plug which fits nicely on that SATA jumper header and let's me turn the SATA controller on and off from the front of the case, so that I can boot from the SATA drives or make them appear to not exist, which saves a lot of cable swapping. I don't know how sturdy SATA cables are, but my TiVo drive wrangling has taught me how easily 80 conductor IDE cables wear out, and how hard it is to find local shops still stocking them at a reasonable price.

    I look forward to learning whether a stock 810 has an S1 or S2 partition map/layout.

    Since you have an original drive we should be able to manage without going the Instant Cake route, although, especially since they're a sponsor of this website that's not costing us anything, I should mention that anyone not interested in spending a few weeks and hunting down a parts machine as we're doing should consider their product and the resulting convenience factor.

    I'm not ready to give up on the Weaknees or SYBA yet, but if the JMicron chipset just won't work on your machine, the Marvell-based adapters (the new Rosewill, the Addonics, and the Koutech) should, since they work in the ultra-finicky S1s.

    While looking to see if 2 hard drives could be put in the 810 (I was confusing you with another guy looking to upgrade a 40 and a 120 in I forget which model Tivo in another thread), I came across this on the old Hinsdale how-to


    ++ Pioneer DVD Recorder/TiVo combos: The Pioneer DVR-57h DVD and Humax recorder/TiVo combo can be upgraded by replacing the original 120GB A drive with a new larger upgrade A drive. Unfortunately, as of now, Mfs Tools is not functioning properly with the Pioneer DVR-810h image - but if you are able to locate a DVR 57h image (I am unaware of any download location for this image) – this image can be used to create a larger A Drive Replacement that so far seems to function normally in the DVR-810h models.

    It says the page was last updated in November of 2009, but the adapters thread has an 810/Weaknees adapter success story from July 2009, so maybe it's possible but possibly tricky.

    There are two other 810/JMicron success stories in that thread.

    I'm guessing you aren't trying to save recorded shows from your 810, so that gives us some options we wouldn't have otherwise.

    More later, after we pin down the partition layout question.
     
  20. ALSaul_2000

    ALSaul_2000 Member

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    unitron:

    Here is the information I promised. It took me a while to type it up, but I wanted to give you a complete list:

    Partition map (with 512 byte blocks) on ‘ /dev/had ’
    #: type name length base ( size )
    1: Apple_Partition_map Apple 63 @ 1
    2: image Bootstrap 1 1 @ 88047639
    3: image Kernel 1 8192 @ 88047640 ( 4.0M)
    4: Ext 2 Root 1 524288 @ 88055832 (256.0M)
    5: image Bootstrap 2 1 @ 88580120
    6: image Kernel 2 8192 @ 88580121 ( 4.0M)
    7: Ext 2 Root 2 524288 @ 88588313 (256.0M)
    8: Swap Linux swap 262144 @ 89112601 (128.0M)
    9: Ext 2 /var 262144 @ 89374745 (128.0M)
    10: MFS MFS application region 524288 @ 89636889 (256.0M)
    11: MFS MFS media region 69401063 @ 90685465 ( 33.1G)
    12: MFS MFS application region 2 524288 @ 90161177 (256.0M)
    13: MFS MFS media region 2 88047575 @ 64 ( 42.1G)
    Device block size=512, Number of Blocks=160086528 (76.3G)
    DeviceType=0x0, DeviceID=0x0


    I also jumpered pins 5 & 6 on the SATA Drives - but it did not appear to make any difference - but I do appreicate the link - I now know a bit more than I did before. I have a KINGWIN ADP-06 SATA to IDE Bridge Board coming in tomorrow - I really, REALLY hope that will resolve this issue - If not, I will order a Marvell chipset as you suggested. If that does not work, then I might just use a .45cal to fix it ;-)

    Do you think using that Instant Cake would make a difference with the SATA Drives?

    Roger that on the ASUS A7N8X - it was [is?] a great MotherBoard - I actually have three of them is working.

    Let me know if there is anything I can do for you Sir - your assistance and knowledge has been appreicated

    Take Care - Will yak at you tomorrow after I try the "new" bridge
     

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