OTA only Tivo on the way

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by dave13077, Aug 25, 2014.

  1. Aug 26, 2014 #81 of 538
    Scopeman

    Scopeman 2 x Basic Roamio

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    Remember - Aereo (RIP) had the network firms running to court, and Aereo was a $10/month play to provide nothing more than local OTA DVR, with guide data.

    The networks are deathly afraid of reductions in subscriber fees that currently flow back to them from the cable companies - so much so that they black out channels during negotiations, even though they know people could just pop up an antenna. Why? Easy - because people don't just want the channel content, they want it time-delayed and play/pause/skip capable.

    They would not have been afraid of Aereo if the per-subscriber revenue loss potential was not high. And that would indicate that there is a demand for this product (and Aereo's pricing scheme would indicate that $10-$15 a month for guide data and four tuners is about right). And the reason that Tivo Mini is not supported, while Tivo Stream *is*, is that it helps replicate the Aereo offering. Aereo was not multi-room, but it was watch-anywhere, any-device.

    It is not a surprise to find this offer rejected on a forum populated by folks like me with 10+ years of Tivo time, numerous units, etc. But we're not the target market.

    Personally I hope this succeeds, because it will destroy the current 'bundle-and-cram' pricing model of cable if it does. We'll get a la carte pricing a lot faster with devices like this selling in the marketplace.
     
  2. Aug 26, 2014 #82 of 538
    BriHiFi

    BriHiFi New Member

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    The only consumer I would think this appeals to is the impulse cord cutter. A low upfront cost, only locked in for service for one year and if they don't like it they can return to cable or sat. All for less than what a standard DVR would cost retail. Long-term customers will obviously buy the TiVo basic. Personally, I do better with a higher device price and a lower service fee. The sticker shock of $15 a month for free TV is a bit much. After all how much does it really cost them to provide the service. Not just over the air but cable as well.

    I cut the cord with DirecTV 15 years ago. I joined the wonderful world of DVR about 10 years ago. My first DVR was a Sony (@ $600. Retail). It only had one tuner, no TV show offload and the guide was free. It did it's job well until the guide was no longer provided. At the time I thought anyone who is over the air only that bought a TiVo was a sucker to pay a monthly service fee. I purchased a TiVo premiere for $200 with three months free service and nine months at $15 per month. Which was perfect because at that time there were discussions in this community about the upcoming new DVR model eventually named TiVo Romeo and didn't want to pay a lifetime subscription on a soon to be outdated DVR. My TiVo Romeo is a much better DVR than the Sony, it's not even close. At roughly the same cost, TiVo is the best DVR available. I currently have two Romeo basics and a TiVo Stream. As a comparison, I also have a Mac Mini used as an EyeTV DVR which records and converts TV shows to iTunes automatically and then can be streamed to any additional TV using an Apple TV device. There is a TV Guide service fee of $19.99 per year.

    TiVo needs to find a more efficient way of making money. Example: I purchased two brand-new TiVo Premiers for $30 each at Best Buy when the Romeo became available. I wanted to use them as a Mini alternative. I tried to activate service but was not offered the $99 lifetime offer. So now I have two HDMI cables, two spare remotes, power cords and hard drives. I gave TiVo a chance to make money. That being said, I don't think they're going to make any money selling $50 DVR's without mandatory activation at point of sale. At $50 it still makes for a good parts box. TiVo's profits gone, bye-bye. I don't know what they're thinking.

    I have had experience installing DirecTV and cable DVR's in the past. DirecTV DVR's are pretty good, not as good as TiVo but pretty good. Cable DVR's suck and are a pain to use in comparison. Now if cable gets a DVR that functions as well as DirecTV's DVR, TiVo could be and trouble. And TiVos' main customer base might end up being cord cutters/over the air users.
     
  3. Aug 26, 2014 #83 of 538
    ncbill

    ncbill Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    The base Roamio w/ lifetime is already available for around $500 (including the code cost) if you go the 'reseller code' route via ebay.

    With this new model Tivo should go back to the old $9.95/month pricing they offered for the 'OTA-only' Premiere.

     
  4. Aug 27, 2014 #84 of 538
    replaytv

    replaytv gun talk ignore list

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    Have they said whether activation at point of sale will be required?

    I will probably buy one just to see what they are like, as I have only experience with Premieres and older boxes. But only if they don't require that I activate at the point of sale. Then I will put it in the garage to watch football live or a maybe a little time shifting while cleaning out the garage, or in the kitchen to watch the news while cooking. Or give it to a friend or sell on craigslist/eBay after I have learned everything I want to know about it.

    Tivo has never made much money on me, as I have always had lifetime TiVos, and have bought them used already activated except for one.
     
  5. Aug 27, 2014 #85 of 538
    slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    This is the part people don't get - you are paying over time for the box, NOT just to get guide data. Same thing when you buy that iPhone for $99 upfront then have increased cell bills for 2 years.

    Tivo has never been able to get certain folks to understand this.
     
  6. Aug 27, 2014 #86 of 538
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Well-Known Member

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    People understand this just fine. The problem is, at $15 per month, you're going to end up paying far more than the box is worth to watch free TV. Tivo needs to drop this to something like $5 per month and charge $100 -150 up front for the box. The monthly fee is simply too high for what's being offered. I think Tivo set this up to fail right out of the gate so they can say that they tried and then wash their hands of anything OTA related.
     
  7. Aug 27, 2014 #87 of 538
    BriHiFi

    BriHiFi New Member

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    I understand that just fine. I am one that would prefer to pay for the box upfront.

    Thanks Mr. Unnatural, you get the point I was trying to make.
     
  8. Aug 27, 2014 #88 of 538
    jrtroo

    jrtroo Chill- its just TV

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    It may well fail, but many joined the "free" premiere offer years ago. They may be running this as a pilot for costing future products. But, I'm pretty sure their investors would not stand for a program designed to fail.
     
  9. Aug 27, 2014 #89 of 538
    blacknoi

    blacknoi Active Member

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    If we are buying this at retail and only wanted to pick one up for spare parts for another base roamio... I wonder if we can buy it $49.99 out the door and then just never activate?

    Or will BB require you to sign up for the 1-year @ $14.99/month instore?

    If you can buy it w/o activation at the point of sale, it could be a lucrative part machine. An extra A/C adapter and extra hard drive immediately come to mind.
     
  10. Aug 27, 2014 #90 of 538
    BriHiFi

    BriHiFi New Member

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    This is an excellent point. And I share your opinion.

    I think TiVo would be more profitable and covered the cost of their products if they offered their current pricing model (subscription based) to their online sales and offer the higher pay one price at Best Buy. I can go to Best Buy right now and buy a TiVo off the shelf without a subscription. TiVo would have to offer some incentives to Best Buy to get them to activate subscriptions at the point-of-sale. That would just cut into their profits. All this for a over the air box. Not a good business plan. I have many changing opinions on the matter and this is just one. Now, I'm only referring to the TiVo OTA product.

    Best Buy used to sell DirecTV boxes. This ended up being a poor decision as it didn't make them enough money to cover the time spent to activate them. Best Buy no longer sells direct TV receivers. Now I don't know what the real reasons are but from an outsiders view that would be my take on it. Maybe Best Buy will do a better job at subscription based purchases with TiVo than they did with DirecTV.
     
  11. Aug 27, 2014 #91 of 538
    slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    Sure, but Tivo doesn't see it that way for this box - they WANT the uninformed consumer to buy it because it's cheap, then make all their money on the backend. It's irrelevant whether it makes sense for you, it's not for people here.

    No different than how cell phones are sold today, which was my point.
     
  12. Aug 27, 2014 #92 of 538
    slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    Good idea, but my guess is that at this price it has to be bundled with a year of service.
     
  13. Aug 27, 2014 #93 of 538
    BriHiFi

    BriHiFi New Member

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    I apologize. I wish you had stated TiVo's plans before I gave my viewpoint. I thought this was a discussion board. But apparently you have all the TiVo answers. You should be the first to reply to every post and give TiVos response to the subject. That way everybody has a clear understanding. The use of how cell phones are sold today is an outdated example. I'm not saying your wrong but just outdated. The cell phone companies paradigm has shifted. They would rather you pay for your device, so that they can have competitive prices. If you can't afford a $400-$700 phone out right then they can choose to factor in the price of the phone distributed through monthly payments. And they can blame the high bills on your expensive phone and not their extremely competitive plans. Most new competitive cell phone plans are without contract. I'm not saying that subsidized plans are not available. But, what do I know? You know everything, right? There's no having a conversation with you. You are obviously just one of those last word freaks. If I'm uninformed about that too, then I apologize. Good day to you, sir.
     
  14. Aug 27, 2014 #94 of 538
    Diana Collins

    Diana Collins Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    There are many reasons Best Buy doesn't sell DirecTV anymore. One reason is that the days of doing a self install are long gone. Aligning a multi-focal satellite dish that receives Ka frequencies is sufficiently difficult that it requires a good deal of training and experience (a lot of installers don't do that great a job). But the main reason is that DirecTV wanted to take closer control over their equipment manufacturing and distribution channel (a LOT of access cards were stolen from receivers in Best Buy's inventory). This was also the point at which the RCA, Sony, Samsung, Philips, etc., boxes disappeared and everything was branded "DirecTV" (although RCA and Samsung, among others, still manufacture the receivers). These days about the only 3rd parties selling Dish or DirecTV are agents just selling subscriptions...the satellite company sends out an installer with all the equipment (none is inventoried by the retailer).
     
  15. Aug 27, 2014 #95 of 538
    bradleys

    bradleys It'll be fine....

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    @BriHiFi - I would recommend the same thing to you as I would to anyone else interested in a premium OTA DVR. Purchase the Roamio Basic with liftetime service - you should be able to get in at about $500 and you will have no future fees.

    You can extend that with Mini's if you would like and even add a TiVo stream for more functionality in the future. If you ever decide to subscribe to a lifeline cable or better service, this TiVo can easily transition with you.

    This product is marketed for people looking for a low cost entry point, but I think we all agree the long term value isn't there.
     
  16. Aug 27, 2014 #96 of 538
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    For some reason people don't have a problem paying all that money each month to cell phone companies just to save some money initially on a subsidized phone. But in the end they pay alot more just like with the OTA Roamio.
     
  17. Aug 27, 2014 #97 of 538
    bradleys

    bradleys It'll be fine....

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    With a phone at the end of the two years you own a fully un-subsidized phone and can sell it as a fully un-subsidized phone.

    If TiVo offered a Monthly service that eventually converted to lifetime, that would be more of an apples to apples comparison.

    If you cannot tell, I consider the TiVo monthly service fee a very bad option for the consumer.
     
  18. Aug 27, 2014 #98 of 538
    aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    But still at the end of that period you paid for the phone a couple times over in addition to cell service. I know with my cell service that is the case. I buy unsubsidized phones because even if I pay $600 for the phone, over a two year period I still save over $1k by purchasing a full price phone. If I buy a used phone I save even more. Of course with the OTA Roamio you could be paying $15 a month forever, or TiVo might offer a lower price deal after the first year. I guess we'll find out in a year what happens.

    If TiVo did the same thing and only charged $10 a month it seems like it would be easier to swallow. $10 a month is close enough to the point where alot of people might not mind paying, but $15 is too high for that. I know with my Roamio Basic on a $6.95 a month plan I don't mind paying that amount indefinitely since it is so small. But if TiVo does something stupid and tries to raise it on me, then they will be losing this extra money from me. No idea if they will ever force me to drop the $6.95 rate. I hope not.
     
  19. Aug 27, 2014 #99 of 538
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Well-Known Member

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    Yep. I'd like nothing more than to ditch my smart phones, but unfortunately we got used to having them as part of our everyday routine. The $30 per month internet charge is what really gets my goat as neither the wife or I use it all that much. Sadly, if you want a smartphone you have no other option.

    Except that the value of the phone is considerably less by the time your initial agreement has expired because newer models have been released and nobody wants to buy old technology.

    Absolutely. Without a lifetime option I don't see this DVR surviving in the marketplace.

    +1. It's the main reason why I ditched Tivo years ago and switched to useing HTPCs with cablecard and ATSC tuners. All of my hardware has paid for itself, including the numerous upgrades I've made over the years, and I still don't have any monthly fees other than the monthly cablecard rental from Verizon.
     
  20. bradleys

    bradleys It'll be fine....

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    Resale of an AT&T iPhone 4S is about $200 to $250, so I think the resale value is actually pretty good.

    Agreed

    TiVo Hardware + Lifetime provides you similar option with a lot less effort than a HTPC for "around" the same cost with a pretty decent resale value.

    Roamio Pro with lifetime is about $800 - resale for a base Premiere with lifetime is around $350
     

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