OS / UI based on Flash good idea?

Discussion in 'TiVo Premiere DVRs' started by hoyty, Mar 2, 2010.

  1. Mar 4, 2010 #41 of 107
    ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    Whether flash is better or not is irrelevant to the discussion. And whether Apple is right or not, whether they use flash or not, doesn't change the fact that the websites most people want to browse are Flash versus the open standard html5.
    The iPad is not some gadget being designed for 5 years hence but being sold this year. It will not take the place of a netbook so it had better play good games (check) play video easily(sort of check - have to use Apple way) and be able to browse all my entertainment websites and allow me to play media from them (big fat nada on this one)

    with one third the functionality lost the iPad is a no sale for me. Now in 5 years if HTML5 is kicking Flash butt and all the web sites use HTML 5 then great I will be happy using the gadgets that support HTML 5 and never look back.
    Again this is not 5 years from now.

    this ties into TiVo using Flash as well - all the widgets for the new TVs are in flash, flash developers can write to the web and to mobile phone and to the TVs and now TiVo - 3rd party apps are flowing in Flash and Apple will have a hard time changing that - so TiVo is best to just jump in the flow and run Flash natively in their UI.
     
  2. Mar 4, 2010 #42 of 107
    wierdo

    wierdo New Member

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    H.264 sucks for animation. ActionScript is faster than JavaScript for animation and the like (usually).

    Not that I particularly care for flash. I care for manufacturers of supposedly general purpose devices not dictating what software I may or may not run. Nobody's asking Apple to write a Flash plugin themselves. We just want them to let someone else do it.

    Regardless, Flash Video, whether H.264 or otherwise, has absolutely nothing to do with TiVo using Flash. They are two entirely different uses.
     
  3. Mar 4, 2010 #43 of 107
    jannlinder

    jannlinder New Member

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    Okaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy

    I am gonna say this and I really want you to think about it cos I am not against you nor your ideas. I am against people who are not thinking about what Apple is accomplishing here. NOT what you think they want to accomplish...but what they are accomplishing with the refusal to allow flash onto the iPhone and with the callout of Adobe Flash as being a resource hog on the OS X platform (and many others).

    Have you ever visited those sites with Flash turned off? Your computer is much faster...scrolling speed much better and you can actually read the articles on the page without some advertiser using YOUR horsepower to render their irritating ad.

    Is Flash really needed? No. Video can play without flash. If all you want to see if video on those entertainment sites? You do not need flash. I will say this again: You do not need flash to view video.

    Playing online games? Maybe. Viewing streaming video? Nope.



    One third gone? I have been trying to figure this one out. I use Click2Flash...and have for around 6 months ever since I found it. Since then I have YET to see one irritating ad that those entertainment sides want to riddle my screen with.

    The problem that we are seeing nowadays is that websites and site designers do not know when enough is enough. I do not wish to have 70% of my screen taken up with flash ads in the right hand margin and riddled throughout the text in 3"x3" squares forcing me to see them.

    What Apple is really accomplishing is the following:

    Flash is buggy and slow
    Flash developers by-and-large are lazy when they code ads and applications.

    The combination of the two is horrific!

    What do we get with Apple refusing Flash on the iPhone.

    One: Games/Apps only from Apple.
    Do I like this? No. Do I deal with it? Yes. Why? Cos just tell me what apps (besides Google voice ... that found a COOL way around the "Cannot duplicate iphone functionality clause") I am missing? Another browser on my iPhone? Don't want it. Mobile Safari is Great! Certainly way better than Microsoft’s Internet Explorer Mobile. Tell me that WinMob IE complies with HTML5! Nope! Mobile Safari does.. That means you can view video on HTML5-compliant sites with it. .99 for most apps (or free) is great!

    Two: x264-only video.
    So what? I put all my video in this format anyway, as it is the format all my Apple OS X machines, iPhones, iPods, yes and even my TiVo natively uses! What is wrong with that video format. My TiVo certainly does not allow ANY kind of access into it's Flash video player. Why encode differently? I have never understood this.

    WAY better battery life
    Okay, let's test. I will play video using youtube on the iPhone. You play it using your flash player on your new Windows Mobile handset. Whose battery runs out first. Oh, what is that? Flash isn’t landing on existing Windows Mobile handsets, either? Poor WinMobile. Adobe has reportedly reworked its Flash strategy and is now deferring mobile Flash support to Windows Phone 7 Series devices. (This is followed in the last week by Skype abandoning the WinMob platform all together! )


    Lessee: New List:

    Companies who are abandoning Flash on the Mobile Platform
    * Adobe

    Isn't that enough said? That really wasn't fair as they are not abandoning it. They have decided to "defer support for it".

    Okay, Now let's talk TiVo. With the hype around Flash being a resource hog (and even Adobe admits that it is a very "heavy" resource user on platforms that do not allow direct access to the graphics chips) isn't it the worst time to deliver a set top box with Flash built in as the ONE THING that always runs? PS: The Tivo Premiere systems do NOT have ANY IC's that are flash-hardware accelerated. I talked to TiVo Techs today and asked. They categorically denied both having dedicated chipsets for flash AND they denied rewriting the kernel to allow Adobe Flash direct access to the graphics system that they would need for acceleration. Flash on Linux does not use x264 GPU accelleration either. Read this link for what the different "drawing" methods flash uses..and what can be accelerated on which platforms. OpenGL is used on most platforms for drawing to the screen.

    HELL ... TiVo openly states that if you want faster network copying (HME, etc) you need to tune the HD tuners to blank (or SD) channels. That the limiting factor in network latency and/or TiVo to TiVo copy speeds is the CPU and file I/O subsystem they put in my expensive TiVo HD.

    What are they gonna tell me to do now? Want faster copying? Turn off the TiVo.

    So, again, tell me...Why is Flash irrelevant to the discussion?

    Websites will redesign if the standards change (or get enforced by browser vendors). That is a good thing.
     
  4. Mar 4, 2010 #44 of 107
    SnakeEyes

    SnakeEyes Active Member

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    Whether it's better or not is completely relevant. We are discussing whether or not Flash is a good or bad idea.

    You said most sites people want to visit are using Flash. That's the problem. As big player, adding Flash on encourages developers to continue to use Flash and delay any desire to do something different. That is why Apple is not supporting flash. Especially not when allowing Flash just makes things slower, more prone to crashing, and costs money. Especially when there is something better on the horizon. And it's not going to take 5 years either.

    That doesn't change the thought that Flash is awful for a variety of reasons and that it's going to be made obsolete by html5. Adobe is already terrible with development and improvement of Flash. When it is no longer the web darling that it is now then things will be even worse. But good luck to those adopting now. Might have made sense years ago.
     
  5. Mar 4, 2010 #45 of 107
    SnakeEyes

    SnakeEyes Active Member

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    Apple is only dictating what software you may or may not run if you choose to buy their products. There are many general purpose devices you can use out there besides Apple.

    As for animation, Canvas is better and good gui tools are on the way.
     
  6. Mar 4, 2010 #46 of 107
    dswallow

    dswallow Save the Moderatоr TCF Club

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    I finally watched the video.

    Pathetic.

    My Amazon Unbox HME app provided a faster HD screen UI experience on a Series3. How can TiVo put that in front of the press? It was painful sitting through it just waiting for graphics to appear at all on some screens; and then they'd pop in a couple every second or two. Just painful to watch. And I never saw a single text menu that appeared; they all were drawn one line at a time, painfully slowly.

    That's just so very sad.

    I sure hope this was just a jury-rigged mocked-up demo and that whatever ships will perform better. But this really just completely turned me off bothering even getting one to play with. Now I have to at least await word from people that the speed is appreciably snappier than it appears to be, and at least snappier than equivalent interaction with the current interface.
     
  7. Mar 4, 2010 #47 of 107
    Sapphire

    Sapphire Xtal substance

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    I don't want flash because it's better. I want to use flash because I paid for the device and I want to use it how I want to use it. That's all!
     
  8. Mar 4, 2010 #48 of 107
    Sapphire

    Sapphire Xtal substance

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    Hmm. I thought when money changed hands it became my product, not theirs.
     
  9. Mar 4, 2010 #49 of 107
    flaminiom

    flaminiom New Member

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    I thought Flash Platform apps run right on the OS vs through an intermediate layer like everyone is most familiar with on the Web. A perfect example is while Flash plug-in will never be on the iPhone OS, there will be Flash apps.

    If you look at the Flash Platform site, it lists DirectTV UI as a customer.

    Flash as a large developer community and mature tools. I'm sure Tivo was able to bring a complete redesign faster to market using Flash Platform than if they started from scratch or make the current OS limp along for another decade. Also, I think there are a lot of possibilities for extensibility from Tivo and third-party developers/content producers.

    I say lets see how the finish product looks in the home with a dedicated network connection, rather than making a bunch of assumptions on poor Flash plug-in performance.
     
  10. Mar 4, 2010 #50 of 107
    StuffOfInterest

    StuffOfInterest New Member

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    You thought wrong. When you pay for software you pay for a license to use that software, not for the software itself. With that license comes a terms of service which can (and does) impose restrictions. When you buy an iPhone, iPad, or any other computer based product you are buying the hadware but you are not buying Applies iPhone OS, only a license for that OS which has the restrictions above. Dump Apple's OS and you can do anything you want with the hardware, but good luck making it do much more than throw a basic "error, no OS found" message on the screen. Same as a PC would work without any OS. And a TiVo is basicly just a PC with specilized interfaces.
     
  11. Mar 4, 2010 #51 of 107
    flaminiom

    flaminiom New Member

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    You should read the end user license agreement on all your software and operating systems.
     
  12. Mar 4, 2010 #52 of 107
    SnakeEyes

    SnakeEyes Active Member

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    As already posted by others, you thought wrong. In addition to a TOS and EULA, an educated consumer buys a product knowing it's features and benefits along with it's drawbacks and limitations. Every product has their limitations. An educated consumer that buys an Apple iDevice knows it won't support Flash. It's your choice to do so or not.

    Regardless of that, I noticed you didn't tell me why Flash was better when I gave you the opportunity. I assume that's because you don't think it's better?
     
  13. Mar 4, 2010 #53 of 107
    jmpage2

    jmpage2 Active Member

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    It is understandable why TiVo went with Flash for reasons already mentioned. TiVo obviously does plan some kind of future application functionality for the new box and if it has the (unverified) hardware acceleration for Flash that has been mentioned then it is totally understandable why they have chosen to go with it.

    I am just hopeful that Adobe don't continue to be lazy slobs who leave gaping security holes in Flash, refuse to fix problems that result in lag and crashes, etc.

    As far as the whole Adobe vs. Apple thing I think that a lot of people forget the history of that relationship. Apple was pushing Quicktime (which was more or less standards based) as the way of distributing media on the internet. Microsoft teamed up with Adobe to push flash and effectively marginalized the standards based Quicktime in favor of buggy and proprietary Flash.

    Apple has every right to stick it to Adobe with the iPad/iPod not supporting Flash. Flash would suck battery power, leave the devices exposed to crashes and other problems that APPLE gets stuck supporting and continues to prop up a proprietary format that should go bye-bye.
     
  14. Mar 4, 2010 #54 of 107
    Sapphire

    Sapphire Xtal substance

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    The point is that I don't think it's better. I just want the freedom to run it without someone else telling me I can't because they think that the world shouldn't be using it.
     
  15. Mar 4, 2010 #55 of 107
    Sapphire

    Sapphire Xtal substance

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    So in other words they're forcing consumers to spite their competitors by disabling the use of third party products.

    If Microsoft did the same thing they'd be hit with an anti-trust suit. Oh wait a minute, they were!!!

    Again, proof that the gospel according to Jobs is that Apple Can Do No Wrong.
     
  16. Mar 4, 2010 #56 of 107
    flaminiom

    flaminiom New Member

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    And I'd like a flying car, but I don't see that being in the cards either. ;)

    Apple is building a new platform and they're particular about what others do to it and its reputation among consumers (more so than among developers, apparently). Sometimes I agree, sometimes I disagree. That's just the way it is. In the end it is their platform and they're doing many things right and I think many more will be proven right in the long run.

    Keep in mind, if Apple won't let you do something in the app store, you can do it in a web app.
     
  17. Mar 4, 2010 #57 of 107
    jmpage2

    jmpage2 Active Member

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    I think you are putting words in people's mouth, or trying to anyway. If anything anti-trust was done initially it was MS and Adobe maneuvering to take Apple out of the web media business by bundling Flash into IE and leveraging the installed base to get Flash into the dominant position it is in today (and hurting Apple in the process).

    Your argument is pretty nonsensical. Companies are forced to support STANDARDS not non-standards, license based products from their competitors.

    Apple isn't doing anything illegal by not supporting flash. The argument that you can't access part of the web without flash is an argument about a consumer making a choice based on what they want to do with the box.

    A better analogy would be this one;

    Several Blu-ray manufacturers ship their boxes with Pandora. Another manufacturer chooses not to ship their Blu-ray player with Pandora. While Pandora is great and has lots of nifty content, there is nothing illegal about not shipping a player with this non-standards based media player that simply limits access to content.

    An educated consumer makes the decision up front and picks their device accordingly. I have personally found flash, in web use, to be buggy, security vulnerable and a total resource hog. I will not shed a tear when it's gone.

    This is all about consumer choice. You can choose whatever handset meets your needs. If Flash is sooo important to you then pick a device that supports it. Apple is being very particular about what they allow to run on the iPhone because the user experience is paramount to them. My grandma can use an iPhone, she probably can't use a WinMo phone.

    P.S., the future of mobile computing is going to be more iPhone like than WinMo like in my opinion.
     
  18. Mar 4, 2010 #58 of 107
    heySkippy

    heySkippy oldweakandpathetic

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    Gotta love how you can make 1 + 1 = 3.

    Face it, you're not the customer Apple wants.
     
  19. Mar 4, 2010 #59 of 107
    StuffOfInterest

    StuffOfInterest New Member

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    Umm, is this a TiVo forum or an Apple forum?
     
  20. Mar 4, 2010 #60 of 107
    Sapphire

    Sapphire Xtal substance

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    Apple isn't doing anything illegal yet because so far no one has gone to court about Flash.

    Anyway I'm not going to derail this thread anymore because we agree to disagree and fanboys typically think that Apple can do no wrong and there is nothing to convince them.

    Suffice to say, I'm not going to own any more Apple products, since the restrictions have made it difficult to do what I want to do with it.

    So you can keep your Apple products, I'll keep my freedom.

    BAck to talking about TiVo.
     

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