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Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by james.92, Dec 4, 2007.
And when signing up for service, you agreed to every one of those.
You haven't been around that long, but in the past TiVo did just what you suggest they didn't. I bought 2 Series I units before a subscription was required. Then TiVo made a subscription required and only relented when pressure from those who were told they did not need a subscription mounted. Those folks were told "but you are also paying for software development - thats not free!" right up until they caved in and reverted back to the original deal they promised.
Except when TiVo stops updating the units with new features but doesn't reduce the fee they charge (for guide data and software updates). Ask any Series I owner who hasn't gotten a software update in years but has seen their monthly fee go up and up and up....
There used to be no ads. Then there were a couple ads. Now there are a lot more ads, and more ads appear periodically. You suggested previously that nobody had ever posted a thread (utter bull, by the way) saying they cancelled because of ads. Now that such a claim is obviously untrue, you are saying the ads are no big deal and unobtrusive (presumably making that determination on behalf of the entire TiVo community)
How condescending! I have steered many clear of TiVo, because it's not the deal it once was. For some people it's good but I cannot understand the rabid support TiVo enjoys by some here. TiVo doesn't care about you and probably won't be around in 10 years - why are some of you acting like you are financially tied to TiVo? The bottom line is that TiVo is generally the most expensive (in initial costs and ongoing costs) PVR solution. It has the easiest UI and offers suggestions. If one wants a low price, cable-company provided DVR's are universally cheaper. If one has satellite, the units offered by DirecTV/Dish are alot cheaper and are the only choice to record High-Def. If one wants all the bells and whistles and is not averse to the initial cost, an HTPC will surpass a TiVo except for cable provided HD content for which the HTPC is more expensive by a long shot initially.
I dont get any ads at all on my HR20's nor do I get any ads at all on my HTPC. I also can rip DVD's (and I have a 200-DVD jukebox on the HTPC). I have tons of TV shows archive, multiple TB's of storage, I can stream shows to myself at work if I want and all of that without any monthly fees.
Different strokes for different folks, but belittling anyone and being condescending towards anyone who doesn't see things your way is inappropriate. Some people are better served by other options and to suggest that anyone who isn't a TiVo fanboy is too stupid to have a TiVo or too ignorant to know the difference is the height of arrogance and not constructive at all.
At least the "never heard anyone cancelling for ads" line will be retired to the "lines I can't use anymore" collection, yes?
I never expected the guide data to be free, but IMO, TiVo charges way too much for it. Their agreement claims that Wish Lists, Season Passes, Suggestions, etc. are also part of the "service", but that is hogwash. Those "services" do not require any effort on TiVo's part whatsoever. They are supposed to be features of the software that I invested in when I bought the box. It only needs the aforementioned guide data and input from ME to make it work (recording habits, thumb ratings, etc.). Since they change the "agreement" at will, and can declare anything on the box as a "service", it pretty much becomes a moot point, doesn't it?
I don't know the real reason behind the shutdown of Zap2It's developer site (the free data), but it wasn't the fault of MythTV. From the little I have read, it seems that certain commercial abusers forced them to pull the plug. Although it's sad to see the free option gone, the replacement service cost is only $1.67 a month and is compatible with a lot of software.
I don't think TiVo will ever remove any "features" either, but not because it comes from the goodness of their hearts. They need it to justify slipping the other crap in. This includes ad delivery mechanisms, habit mining techniques, DRM, etc. The fabled "horse of wood" has taken a new shape.
Have you noticed that whenever they add something "new", the GUI gets slower? Isn't it the GUI that TiVo gets praised for? If you start giving your customers a bad experience with the core functionality, what do you think is going to happen?
you are right I was not here for the actual transition for required service. I was here when TiVo screwed up somewhat on transitioning from paid HMO to part of the service HMO. TiVo dos indeed screw some things up. Nowadays the S1 TiVo DVRs will work without subscription will get Guide data in a manual record mode and will do so until it falls apart. Lifetime Service for S1 had some kind of marketing screw up as well and people to this day are transferring S1 lifetime to a new Series 3 unit for free. TiVo the company does not care about me the individual, that is true, they do want to keep their customers and have shown in various ways they are willing to fix their screw ups for customers.
so how do you propose TiVo get the new features onto the S1 We all know of course that you can buy an S2 extremely cheap, if you upgraded the drive in the S1 you can pull it out and put it in the S2 with the same simple process. Depending on the OS that came on the S1 - you can even keep the S1 running in the manual mode. Seems incredibly foolish to me as well for anyone to keep a monthly payment S1. Anyone with lifetime on the S1 has seen it pay off many times over by now and also can make use of several deals to transfer that lifetime to a new box ether for free or 199$.
- See, right here this is what happens. "now there are a lot more ads" - a poster says something highly subjective as if it was fact.
so we go from the no ads of your S1 time to one yellow star on main menu and billboard on delete screen. The thumbs up stuff can be ignored and who goes into showcases anyway. So you may subjectively call that a lot, but factually it is not much at all. TiVo has seen the cliff edge of any really intrusive ad(the old interstitial ads) so I discount any slippery slope argument.
so can you link to the post where someone else had cancelled over ads?
snipped out the part where you condescendingly lecture me on being condescending
so you point to price rise heavily in both posts and also the ads. I think you just wanted to bust my chops and truly cancelled because of the monthly sub/fee increase.
Not saying this is OP's point, but as we've tried to explain several times over, everyone's breaking point is different. As a new customer I chose to pay for three years up front (and two minutes later they come out w/the Lifetime deal again Oh well). If they suddenly asked me for $200 to continue my service, I would weigh the pluses and minuses. It would help TiVo's case a lot if there were a lot fewer things in TiVo's minus column and in the Competition's plus column, wouldn't you agree?
Like you've said, this is rather subjective, but I would also agree that there are "a lot more ads" compared to when I first got my box. First there were no ads, then the one ad that disappeared if you watched it. Now you watch the ad and a new one just takes its place. The screen is never truly clean and void of non-strictly TiVo service material, and it appears in at least two places (Now Playing screen, & at the end of a program).
well put as pure logic of course what you said is correct... as pure logic. Obviously ads are not hurting TiVo incs. bottom line so it is not much of a minus in the overall picture.
sorry but ads on two screens out of all the screens there are is just factually a small percentage of the GUI and simply not a lot more ads. It is a very subjective statement to state otherwise.
Would I be fine if there were no ads tomorrow? If it did not lead to an increase in my rate or a decrease in resources spent on new features, then sure, I do not need the ads. So this has never been a defense of the ads or TiVo, just being objective as I can is all.
lol... yes, subjective, but in my case anyway, two heavily used screens?!? Once the SP's are set up I mostly just come back home and watch TV, which for me involves hitting the TiVo button. If I don't hit it twice, I see the ads. The ad at the end of the show would be visible again if I hit the TiVo button rather than left. These would be visible all the time except I have to modify the way I use the product to avoid seeing them. Would the TiVo button really be the biggest if it weren't to be used more often than most?
PS: So TiVo increased their subscription costs, anyway?!? So much for ads saving us all
must be hell for you to read the paper or drive down a highway
I don't read the paper and actually just saw those digital billboards during the holidays in Atlanta for the first time. Those are pretty!! The Airtran ad no longer features Micheal Vick And Delta now flies to an African city non-stop.
Maybe TiVo needs to figure out a way for their customers to actually give a hoot about the ads? For instance, I would potentially be in the market for a new car in the next few years, but a Jaguar? (or even a Lexus?) Please. I certainly don't give a hoot about Martha Stewart, and only recently figured out that "Atonement" was a movie. (from the pop up thumbs up commercial).
All that notwithstanding, I like this explanation for why TiVo does ads: Because they can. They don't need to "figure this out" because like you said, it's not their problem, it's ours. We're the offended parties, and even if we did cancel, I personally think it'd just be a drop (out of) TiVo's bucket, anyway. *Shrug* However, someone (not I) already mentioned the ads thing on an Amazon.com review. I know I read those reviews over and over again before purchasing. I don't recall reading that particular one, but I do wonder how potential customers might feel about being used as an ad base.
WOW! Thanks for the info! I own three of these buggers! (all shipped with ver. 1.2x, bought early to mid '00)
TiVo has one and only one responsibility - to make money for its shareholders. If they can make more money from ad placement than they loose from upset customer's revenues they have a fiduciary responsibility to do it. Just the facts Maam. If the management team is not interested in making money, the board should replace them with someone who is. This is not a company in business to please people, it needs to make money. Now don't get me wrong, if upset people start to impact earnings them by all means it is wrong. I just don't think they are anywhere near crossing that line.
Again, TiVo compared to printed media. Like every other piece of CE equipment in my home, TiVo has an upfront cost. Also, aside from guide data (which you pay to get), TiVo doesn't provide any content whatsoever. So, why do so many people keep using printed media as a comparitive business model?
The billboard comparison almost made me fall out of my chair from laughing so hard. Apparently, you have no clue as to how billboard advertising works. I'll just leave it at that.
well actually TiVo includes ads becuase they can make money. that last part is the rather important part to TiVo inc.
and yes - there will be a pretty small percentage that clicks on all the ads and checks them out.
A small percentage that clicks on ads of interest and ignores the rest (group I am in)
a large percentage that does not care and just ignores them
a small percentage that can not stand they are visible ads at all
a miniscule group that cancels. most likely becasue of price but ads will be included in their reason and have some impact on the decision
well the only video made directly by TiVo is the welcome ones that come on a new box and that hilarious Blue Moon Video
but I do get free Music Choice videos and a growing list of TiVocast options as well. Then there is the sometimes free but usually paid for UNBOX downloads. Also third party HME apps though that feature set has stalled over the past year. Sure that content can be found elsewhere but then so can most newspaper and magazine content. It is all about the delivery and packaging of the content once you step outside the production studios.
And TiVo is not wanting to be just another CE device in your rack, and indeed would not stay in business with that focus. If TiVo is doing its job, it is focused on the packaghing and delivery of content in a simple way to play on the TV screen that is of value to the end consumer, much like a newspaper or magazine business model of old school print days. The Kindle or XM radio is a much closer comparison except they focus on a specific type of media
Ya exactly. I mean it would be one thing if Tivo wasn't free, but since there is no service fee involved that we are paying every month, I think it's totally acceptable for them to push ads on us.
Oh wait, no, that's not true at all. We ARE paying Tivo, and now they are biting the hands that feed them. Not a smart move on any part, extremely short sighted, and maybe a real warning for revenue projections to come.
I can only guess, those who are saying it's ok are either Tivo employees, or people who get jacked over at car dealerships. One or the other for sure. OK, or maybe middle management.
No, we are people who realize TiVo has not turned a profit since day-1 and are looking for revenue sources to help keep them afloat. Would you volunteer to raise your service fee rates to keep them in business without alternate sources of revenue?
To me the choice is simple. Put up with the non-intrusive ads are go without TiVo since they are out of business.
TiVo does provide "content": the interface/guide. the TiVo interface is the gold standard at this point. the interfaces on all other DVRs are constantly being compared to TiVo's, and falling miserably short, i might add.
this content is valuable, and if you don't like the print media comparison (which i personally find valid), let's compare it to television. you pay for cable channels, and yet they are also laden with commercials. you are paying for content, and in order to keep that price down, the channels supplement their income with advertising. it's a legitimate business model, one that consumers have been happy to participate in for some time.
TiVo promises a way around the commercials of television, but they have a right to supplement their income with advertising. and for most of you they still save you a TON of money over ad-free DVR service through your cable/satellite company. if you don't think it's a good value, don't pay.
I'm glad to see so many people are for the new add placements ... However I think you tend to miss the POINT, I pay for this service. Are these people who place these adds helping by lowering the cost of my subscription. The short answer to that is NO ! I have no gain in the adds, hence I think I have a right to not see them. Do ahead and make your hair brained excuse as to why the adds are not that big of a deal, it just reminds me how dumb society is getting these days. Try to make a case how by placing these adds is good for Tivo , and keeps it afloat. I have three Tivos , and I for one AM shopping around for something else... I have been a Tivo customer for years, and have gladly payed my subscription fee on all three systems. Its no wonder Tivo is posting a loss, and I venture to guess that all the die hard Tivo fans that are now getting hosed over will see the light and leave.... Tivo is not the only game in town and the are not the best game in town.... I and many others feel betrayed by Tivo, and I hope in the end they get what is coming to them.
I was pissed at first also.
But this does not happen every time just ever now and then
And like the other posters say how did this imped you from you normal functions?
The guide is a necessary component of the DVR's scheduling feature, but is not needed by the end user. So, I've never considered it "user consumable content" in the traditional since. BTW, the TiVo interface is one of the slowest in the industry, so I wouldn't exactly call it "gold standard".
TiVo deals in CE and software; the others are media companies. Two totally different business types, so I wish people would stop comparing them. At this point in history, TiVo is more akin to Apple, and you don't see Apple force feeding third-party advertising to their customer's hardware, do you?
Please, OH PLEASE, show me where TiVo has promised this. This is one of reasons why ReplayTV got sued out of existence.
Again, someone calls Digital Video Recorders a "service". Why, why, why??? Recording video to hardware I purchased is not a freakin' service!!!