No HDHomeRun Prime 6 This Year

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by heyted, Oct 27, 2019.

  1. heyted

    heyted Member

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    This comes as not much of a surprise. The statement "Coming in 2019" has been removed from the product page and this statement from SiliconDust appears:

    "To our customers and anxious fans of the HDHomeRun PRIME model and the upcoming 6 tuner version HDHomeRun PRIME6

    When we launched the original PRIME 3-tuner model, there were years of development, testing, tweaking and certifications. No one knew of this because it was just released, and the units are still working today ("HDHomeRun devices just work").

    We are still very excited as we plan and develop the updated generation, adding full CableCARD support of 6 simultaneous programs. We had been premature on a few occasions in announcing this product creating expectations from our fans (and the occasional dramatic naysayers).

    There have been chipsets that were sold off and killed in the middle of our dev (twice). And delays due to normal development that many don't know nor deem relevant beyond "just give me my PRIME!" and we respect and love that passion.

    I want to assure all of our customers and fans that we are still deep in development of the upcoming PRIME6 and we will announce only when the time is right and when we are in mass production. There will be no casual updates or dart board dates to appease the masses. A lot goes into developing new hardware, and as I have said before, "if this one was easy, everyone would have one on the market."

    All of us at Silicondust want an HDHomeRun PRIME6 in our homes as much as our supporters. Keep watch and sign up for our mailing list, or follow us on social media so that you'll be the first to know when we are ready to release more information.

    Sincerely,

    Theodore Head
    CEO/President"
     
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  2. wmcbrine

    wmcbrine Well-Known Mumbler

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    Sad but not unexpected.
     
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  3. tazzmission

    tazzmission Active Member

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    I was looking forward to trying one these. Now I guess I’ll have to get a old Prime on eBay for a jacked up price since you cannot buy one new anymore.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  4. mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    You don't say. The dramatic naysaying is very well deserved.

    Apparently it's not that difficult since your competition did it 6 YEARS AGO! I had a Ceton InfiniTV 6 for years.
     
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  5. SullyND

    SullyND W: 45-24 TCF Club

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    Is jafa still involved with Silicon Dust? Curious how the AZ plans line up.

    BTW if you google Theodore Head there’s some funny NSFW stuff (don’t google at work!)
     
  6. Nov 3, 2019 #6 of 28
    gary.buhrmaster

    gary.buhrmaster Active Member

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    For protected path required content, that (Ceton) device was essentially just for WMC, as was the original Prime. WMC is essentially dead. If the only requirement was to support a dead product, then I would guess a Prime 6 could probably have been released. But SiliconDust decided to offer a replacement for WMC, their own recorder and display apps for protected content, and while they do have display apps for "live TV", they have not yet completed the recording part. And *that* is really hard to pass certification and approval (Microsoft probably spent hundreds of millions to both develop and ensure that the protected path was maintained with each and every patch). And if SiliconDust can't complete the support for protected path required content recording, there are likely few reasons to release a Prime 6 (as only a few MSOs provide most content with copy-freely set, and the biggest is slowly, but quite deliberately, moving towards IPTV for their own service, and the other large one is slowly pushing people to YTTV). As I recall (from the limited public documents, many are behind a paywall), one of the potential issues is that while DLTA approves DTLS for data in transport, DTLS is not approved for data at rest (and a DVR has to be able to store data at rest). There are certainly workarounds, but nothing is ever as simple as it seems when crypto (and certification agencies) is involved. Also note that if SiliconDust gets the entire protected content path recording and playback wrong, there are potential fines in the tens of millions of dollars, so they really really have to get it right (which further raises the bar).
     
  7. Nov 3, 2019 #7 of 28
    mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    We’re only talking about 6 tuners versus 3.
     
  8. Nov 3, 2019 #8 of 28
    Pokemon_Dad

    Pokemon_Dad Ruler of Unown UI

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    They probably couldn't manufacture the 3-tuner version again if they wanted to. Some chips and components may be no longer available, and often you just can't find simple swap-in substitutes.
    That can force you to discard a whole previous year's development cycle and start over. I'm having bad flashbacks...
     
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  9. Nov 3, 2019 #9 of 28
    gary.buhrmaster

    gary.buhrmaster Active Member

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    Right. But arguably why release such a product if you are going to essentially exit the cable tuner market because there is no future in that market as so few people will want to purchase (and ongoing development and support costs money that can only be amortized to values you are willing to pay with many many many people purchasing the device)? Instead, as a company (trying to survive), you would focus on the products that have a future, or (try to) pivot to something else entirely. Ford could have continued to improve and sell the Taurus forever, but so few wanted it, it was not a viable market to continue.
     
  10. gary.buhrmaster

    gary.buhrmaster Active Member

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    Yep, that is what happened. And note that in this particular environment, if the subs are not (essentially) identical you often have to go through the entire approval process again. It makes no sense to go there. The (never stated, but implied) suggestion was that when the manufacturer asked for last orders, SiliconDust made an order to support what they thought would be a "last batch" before their next gen products could come to market. That next gen got delayed, repeatedly.... So, no (new) Prime for You! [no new stock has, interestingly, raised the prices on the new-to-you market to near original retail, or, in some cases, I have seen more than retail (supply, meet demand)].
    Again, Yep (and I feel your pain, and have experienced those bad times). From the reading between the line rumors, for the Prime 4 (transcoder) the first announced improvement, Zenverge chips were oversold to the "big boys", and then the company disappeared (well, it got bought by Freescale, which then got (almost immediately) bought by NXP, and then the entire product line disappeared). And then there was choice of some chip in the next design (I am thinking tuner/demod, but it could have been something else) where the manufacturing company also discontinued the chosen chip. The really big companies can insist on long term supply, but the smaller ones have no such leverage because they cannot commit to large quantities (and SiliconDust is not going to be buying millions and millions of chips).
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  11. heyted

    heyted Member

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    Clarification: heyted didn't say it. Theodore Head said it.
     
  12. heyted

    heyted Member

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    There have been requests on the SiliconDust forums asking them to just get CableLabs certification and just have it work with new Windows software, but it appears they are intent on having it work with a large number of devices.
     
  13. gary.buhrmaster

    gary.buhrmaster Active Member

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    I can certainly understand the requests, given the lack of alternatives right now, but as W7 is (around) two months from end of support, and not a lot of people installed (and stayed) on W8.1 and purchased the pro media center license, what is the volume of the latent demand? Are you aware of anyone actually willing to pay (either directly, or by committing to a purchase of a few tens of thousands of units) for the (extra) certification submission and review process that they are requesting (historically, the certifications is going to be a high five or perhaps even six figure process) along with ongoing support costs? It is easy to make those requests when spending someone else's money, but the requests have tended to disappear if one is asked to show how much they are willing to commit to make it happen (it is like the people here who want TE3 on the Edge; I suspect TiVo *could* do it (they have some good engineers), but it would cost TiVo a lot of money both to do the development, and continue support, and no one has yet (at least publicly) stepped up with the check). Sadly, not everything we might want has a legitimate business case moving forward (and unlike Uber, most companies can't keep losing $4 billion dollars a year and make it up in volume).
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  14. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    By the time is released CableCARD is going to be on the way out. Surprised they're putting so much time/effort into R&D.
     
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  15. gary.buhrmaster

    gary.buhrmaster Active Member

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    While it is clear some MSOs will move out of CableCARDs sooner rather than later (some (of the smaller) have ended their linear QAM TV offering already, others are only offering newer content via IPTV, and one is trying to suggest YTTV is the best way forward), there are others for which it is going to be a longer slog. A market opportunity for even a few years during the transitions might be worth pursuing. But a post linear TV QAM world is clearly something any company needs to be considering (and that includes TiVo).
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  16. trip1eX

    trip1eX Well-Known Member

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    Weird to hear we're not getting something this year that you thought was dead 5 years ago. :)

    Are we not getting 3d tvs this year too? ;) sorry just poking fun.
     
  17. jadziedzic

    jadziedzic Member

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    Out of curiosity, what is a used HD HomeRun Prime 3-tuner CableCARD unit worth these days?
     
  18. tazzmission

    tazzmission Active Member

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    They are going for $200-$300 on eBay right now. I lucked out and bought two of them on the Offer Up app for $150.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  19. mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

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    Wow. Time to sell mine.
     
  20. tazzmission

    tazzmission Active Member

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    If you cut the cord and have no use for them then yeah sell’em.


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