NextGen TV (ATSC 3.0)

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by thyname, Jan 16, 2021.

  1. thyname

    thyname Well-Known Member

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    I read something today about NextGen tv being available in my market (Washington DC metro area) by this summer, and obviously thought about TiVo. I have an antenna in the attic with my Roamio OTA for many years now, which works flawlessly, and I get all channels available locally.

    Does anyone know if TiVo is planning to launch a ATSC 3.0 compatible DVR?
     
  2. janitor53

    janitor53 Member

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    I know nothing but I can't imagine they're going to release new OTA hardware despite there being a market for it. Tivo as a dvr seems to be dead.
     
  3. wizwor

    wizwor Guest

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    You could be right. I have not heard any rumors. Could be that their R&D has turned to OTA and OTT as premium providers move on from TiVo/physical DVRs. We don't really know what anyone is doing about ATSC 3.0. So far, we have seen televisions with ATSC 3.0 tuners and Silicondust network tuners. Have to think TabloTV DVRs with ATSC 3.0 tuners are in the works. Same for Sling's devices. Amazon too. I think we are still years from any of this mattering.
     
  4. CommunityMember

    CommunityMember Active Member

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    Only TiVo knows, and they are not sharing. That said, they probably have plans. And plans for plans. And plans for plans for plans. But that does not mean those plans will turn into shipping product.

    Back in early 2019 there was a proof of concept evaluation of a ATSC 3.0 USB tuner dongle connected to a TiVo, but it was never productized. With the current ATSC 3.0 tuners being rather expensive per tuner any new TiVo OTA product with all ATSC 3.0 tuners likely makes sense only somewhere down the line of wide ATSC 3.0 rollout (in most markets today there is one shared ATSC 3.0 transmitter being used by a group of the local OTAs and they are all experimenting as to what makes sense for them) when not only will the price per tuner likely drop, but there are a lot more ATSC 3.0 transmitters.
     
  5. shwru980r

    shwru980r Well-Known Member

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    I think the issue with releasing an ATSC 3.0 TiVo would be that many people would buy one and find they can't pick up any channels, unless TiVo can manufacture a hybrid ATSC 1.0/3.0 tuner for this new Tivo like Silicon Dust did. I think ATSC 3.0 is a bridge to far for TIVO.
     
  6. CommunityMember

    CommunityMember Active Member

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    While I am sure you can find exceptions, all the tuner silicon available (which SiliconDust used too) does ATSC 1.0 in addition to ATSC 3.0. However it is (still) a rather expensive silicon offering, which for an (all) ATSC 3.0/1.0 tuner TiVo would increase the BoM substantially. SiliconDust fudged their offering by providing just a pair of ATSC 3.0/1.0 tuners in addition to a pair of ATSC 1.0 (only) tuners (so four tuners total, but only two are ATSC 3.0/1,0 capable). In previous years one might expect the 2Q (April-ish) NAB conference for some vendors to announce their new silicon, but NAB has been pushed back to 4Q (October-ish) this year.
     
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  7. shwru980r

    shwru980r Well-Known Member

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    From what I read Silicon Dust retrofitted the 2 hybrid tuners into their existing quatro tuner and they only have 100Mbs ethernet on the quatro box so they don't have the band width to support 4 ATSC 3.0 tuners. Not sure they have the bandwidth to support 2 ATSC 3.0 streams either since I think ATSC 3.0 can use 57Mbs. I think this new box is only $20 more than the previous model.
     
  8. CommunityMember

    CommunityMember Active Member

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    That is consistent with what they have said. It was done to give them something to offer so that they (and the early adopters) can test out certain ways of dealing with ATSC 3.0. Both the early adopters, and SiliconDust, have found that there are some real world issues as some of the stations have done the most interesting things (HEVC interlaced? Who would have thought? [as I understand it, pretty much no one implemented HEVC interlaced rendering correct (except for LG)]). And while the issues will get understood/resolved, it is still early times.

    It should be noted that while an ATSC 3.0 stream is up to ~57Mbps, no single channel is using all that bandwidth (except for certain tests) and as the SiliconDust devices only transport the single (sub) channel selected (not the raw stream except for certain dev modes) the 100Mbps Ethernet tends not to be an issue for these early adopters and tests (although could be for future cases).

    It is presumed that SiliconDust will eventually offer some newer pure ATSC 3.0 tuner box with a new design that will be able to support what they are learning, and that will likely include all the other changes necessary to fully utilize the full ATSC 3.0 capabilities (which could include higher network speeds, crypto functionality for stations use of protected content, and likely a faster SoC to manage it all). And while I would imagine that SiliconDust would like to keep the price point reasonable, adding all those features may push the price higher at least in the near term (eventually prices come down, but that would mean you are no where near being a leader in the marketplace).

    Well, $50, so (while perhaps a little profit there) ~$25 extra per tuner over the previous variant.

    As I recall the tuner silicon which was expected to be used (AFAIK no one was done a teardown to validate) was a MaxLinear tuner chip that is designed to be a chip that can support every existing terrestrial standard from across the world (one tuner to rule them all), which makes it both attractive (SiliconDust, and others, will be able to design one version of their tuners that work everywhere rather than market specific variants), and somewhat more expensive to manufacture.
     
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  9. NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    I thought I read awhile back that if two different channels were on the same ATSC 3.0 tower/frequency, then a single ATSC 3.0 tuner in the new Silicon Dust device could record both. And, of course, there's a lot of channel sharing going on. Here in Nashville, we have two 3.0 towers going. The one on UHF 21 hosts three HD channels, our local CBS, Fox and MyTV while the one on UHF 30 hosts 2 HD and 1 SD, our local ABC and CW, plus the diginet TBD. So my thinking was that the Silicon Dust device could record simultaneous shows on, say, the local CBS and Fox using just one of its two 3.0 tuners.
     
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  10. Jim1348

    Jim1348 Well-Known Member

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  11. machpost

    machpost Member

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    Yeah, at this point it feels like too many promises and too little evidence that they will deliver on these promises anytime soon. It will likely be many years before 4k over the air broadcasts are the norm.
     
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  12. snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

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    When 4K is commonplace, they will be touting ATSC 4.0 or ATSC 5.0 with *true* HD (Holographic Display) support. :)
     
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  13. tenthplanet

    tenthplanet Well-Known Member

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    And that point many people will ask what's OTA :confused::eek::D
     
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  14. Series3Sub

    Series3Sub Well-Known Member

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    All of the big broadcasters and studios who produce TV in additions to movies don't even want to to go their with all the expense of new equipment that incluses camera, switchers, edititing, etc., and the big 4 don't like the idea of new equipment for the O&O's they own, and then add to that the fact that ATSC 3.0 in NOT mandated, and you will get a patchwork, but if you can't get the UHD content, then from the entities who are cold the idea, then what's the point of ATSC 3.0 in the first palce. Yeah, I know its IPTV and all its advantages and broadcasters being able to gather all sorts of data about what you watch and other goodies criss-crossing on you LAN, but IPTV is not going to motivate people to seek out ATSC 3.0

    The only way ATSC 3.0 could be assured of succes is ONLY if it were mandated, and it is not. NAB lost that battle, and NAB does not represent the interests of the big 4 broadcasters and their O&O's, and the big 4 are the majority of new and high quality content on the OTA airwaves. ATSC 3.0 could end up becoming a niche or even simply NOT used by viewers because it matters not that the TV's have the ATSC 3.0 built-in capability to display, but that the DVR's have such capability to record and dispaly, and there seems to be no great interest with ATSC 3.0 as there was with High Definition. Considering the changes with TV watching today, UHD is going to be all about the streaming services--IF you want to pay the the streamers the EXTRA $$$ premium to view it.
     
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  15. NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    The promise (or at least possibility) of better quality picture and sound will prompt a few consumers (tech/home theater geeks) to seek out ATSC 3.0 but if anything actually drives its adoption to the point that it becomes mainstream, it will be easier, more reliable reception with inexpensive indoor antennas. In other words, making it even easier to cut the cord. But even that won't be enough to get 3.0 to the point where it's successful enough for stations to shut down their 1.0 broadcasts. For that to happen, MVPDs will have to strike deals to carry those 3.0 broadcasts in addition to or in place of their legacy 1.0 broadcasts, plus the great majority of OTA viewers will have to have upgraded to 3.0 tuners. I'm not sure that will ever happen and if it does, it probably won't be until late this decade at the soonest.
     
  16. Series3Sub

    Series3Sub Well-Known Member

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    Interesting points, but MVPD's are still losing subscribers and it is the streaming services who have the massive numbers today, and keep them for the foreseeable future. Two big hurdles for many who MAY want OTA using an OTA antenna: impossible to get signal due to obstruction; the pain for many to purchase (extra cost), and install the antenna, and the hard time of finding anyone willing to install it for you for a price. I will also add the usual additional cost and implementation of a separate system to handle the OTA stations. This does not go well in many households with multiple users. This is why still today, a big disappointment about some of the MVPD's is that they do NOT offer local channels, the most expensive cost for an MVPD if they are to provide channels to a clear majority of DMA's. OTA viewing from OTA antennas is still a niche that probably never get any bigger than it is today, unless someone can develop a device that can easily integrates streaming, OTA, etc. for a reasonable price--not the overpriced few options today. And obviously, TiVo failed rather miserably at it. Such a device could be a separate device that can integrate it all (with Straming service recording would be nice), not necessarily a "ONE box" concept that TiVo had.
     

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