New TE4 update starting to roll out

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by TiVo_Ted, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. Apr 28, 2018 #61 of 448
    Diana Collins

    Diana Collins Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    Yeah, well, you could have DirecTV (or Verizon, or Comcast, or any other provider) and you would get UI changes pushed to you without warning or permission. Verizon has been through problems with their software that would make TiVo users rebel. DirecTV had essentially non-functional DVRs for years.

    The point is that TiVo made Hydra an option. You did not HAVE to upgrade. Sure, once you VOLUNTARILY upgraded you lost all your recordings to roll back. BUT that was known going in. Likewise, if you get a new box, you can roll it back before you record anything. Try and do that with ANY other DVR.

    Is Hydra perfect? No. But it works...I have not missed a recording (more than can be said for other DVRs). IMHO, the reported guide issues are far more of a problem than bugs in Hydra. Yet Hydra threads out number guide problem threads.

    I just don't get the anger and vitriol over an OPTIONAL upgrade.
     
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  2. Apr 28, 2018 #62 of 448
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    I think that's part of the anger - TiVo wasting time and resources on GUI updates when there are core guide data issues that go unresolved. i.e. Let's fluff it up and make it nice and pretty while ignoring more serious problems.
     
  3. Apr 28, 2018 #63 of 448
    dlfl

    dlfl Cranky old novice

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    All good points. But the guide debacle started a year and a half ago and I think a lot of people (like me) have given up complaining about it because it doesn't do any good. And although Hydra is an option, it is clear that TiVo considers it the wave of the future and is promoting it. A TiVo employee has stated on this forum that the prior UI will not be getting priority for updates. Thus to have so many users considering Hydra a downgrade rather than an upgrade is very troubling.
     
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  4. Apr 28, 2018 #64 of 448
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    Some vitriol comes from a place where people had high hopes and better expectations. Many folks wanted an updated UI for a long time, and Hydra is a letdown combined with the lowkey suggestion of being left behind going forward.

    Also, they can't admit it but there are also many people who tried to course-correct things over the past year, only to have their time wasted by having their mountains of input ignored. I imagine it's rather demoralizing and triggered some of the p-ss and vinegar.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
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  5. Apr 28, 2018 #65 of 448
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    "Is Hydra perfect? No. But it works...I have not missed a recording (more than can be said for other DVRs)." You have to admit, not a ringing endorsement ;) , and for tech. that has been and can be so great.

    In addition to what has been said above, I think that part of the vitriol is disappointment, both in Hydra and in what could be done with Gen3 but hasn't been--fixes but features as well. Also, even though Hydra is optional, it kinda isn't if one wants new features, which are/may be unlikely (per TiVo_Ted) to be coming Gen3's way--and while Hydra may be optional right now, people fear speculated writing on the wall.
     
  6. Apr 28, 2018 #66 of 448
    Diana Collins

    Diana Collins Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    Personal opinion from someone that started with Series 1 and 2 TiVos, then went to DirecTV's DVRs for HD, and came back to TiVo almost 4 years ago when I dropped DirecTV and switched to FiOS for TV...

    I think TiVo users have been spoiled. For years, TiVo was very supportive of this group here at TCF and listened to you folks, and even participated here. But TiVo was a "dead man walking" when I came back...they were surviving on royalty payments (many of which end this year) and their small and/or foreign cable company customers. Their original business paradigm was clearly not working.

    I am sure Hydra started out as a genuine upgrade from Encore. The intent being to update the classic UI for all customers. But somewhere along the way (perhaps it was the merger with Rovi, perhaps the demise of cablecards in favor of IP delivery) the decision was made to focus on something for their cable company customers, at the possible expense of retail.

    It is time to face facts - TiVo loses money on retail customers. Lifetime service is, and always has been, a money loser. TiVo never reached the first inflection point, where your ongoing R&D is covered by your support revenue and new customers represent increased margin. They keep the retail market because it does act as a huge pool of testers, and so they need people to test both Encore (which is still in use on many cable company DVRs) and Hydra.

    TiVo is now operating like any other company. They don't reveal futures to the market, they don't directly interact with users outside of official channels (TiVo_Ted being a welcome exception), and they don't explain their decisions. This is hard for some to accept, particularly long time users, but hopefully the moves they are making now will allow them to compete as a supplier in the IP world, and so is the best chance of TiVos surviving into the next decade.

    You may say, "Well, if they don't care about retail users like me, why should I care about them?" Well, that is correct...you shouldn't. Everyone needs to make decisions based on their own circumstances and goals. The retail market for TiVo days are numbered...enjoy it while it lasts - using whatever UI you prefer.
     
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  7. Apr 28, 2018 #67 of 448
    stile99

    stile99 Well-Known Member

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    Really? Odd, you haven't mentioned that you just don't get it.
     
  8. Apr 28, 2018 #68 of 448
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    Really? If the cash cow for TiVo is the cablecos and if retail purchasers are only a small part of the whole, isn't at least part of the cost of retail already "covered" and additional users simply incremental costs? As to that part which is unique to the retail customers (e.g. OTA Guide info., boxes), other companies seem to exist in the field, and without TiVo's advantages--don't they make profit?
     
  9. Apr 28, 2018 #69 of 448
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    Regarding focus on retail customers, that likely does make good business sense. However, core functionality of guide data is just as important for that business as it is for the retail customers, so ignoring that problem just doesn't make sense. I think more likely Rovi already is resigned to eventual death of DVR business and is just trying to get by with minimal investment to keep current business on lifeline until it's impending demise.
     
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  10. Apr 28, 2018 #70 of 448
    Diana Collins

    Diana Collins Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    The "cash cow" has been the patents. They are HOPING cable companies pick up the slack. Retail's cost of acquiring a customer, combined with support costs (that exploded when cablecard came along) and the zero on-going revenue from lifetime subscribers, such as myself, inspire to make retail a losing proposition.
     
  11. Apr 28, 2018 #71 of 448
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Rovi, cablecards, or IP had much to do with it. (I would love to expound on that, but shouldn't.) Hydra appears to have been designed as intended... A copycat that takes creative influence from OTT and Xfinity, and just happens to do it in a convoluted way.

    I also don't recognize catering to retail and MSOs as mutually exclusive. Both factions want certain things, but there's nothing inherently broken about Encore, or inherently necessary about Hydra, that a more recognizable remastering (or anything better than what we got) couldn't have accomplished for both factions.

    Tivo's millions of MSO customers are just as spoiled by Encore as we are. They're going to have the same high expectations we do. Failure will add to their current customer retention issues. MSOs might tolerate Hydra because it's monetarily advantageous due to Tivo owning enough patents and because they offer the "whole package" now, but it's not going to be because Hydra is better, stickier, or more user-friendly.

    In short I'm not convinced we have to lower our expectations and eat our vegetables, just because. I wish I could think of a better reason, but absent any of those, I'm going to rely on Occam's razor. Hydra is most likely the result of a hurried process by a company that is notoriously known for moving at a glacially slow pace and releasing half-baked products. Tivo's whole history is precedence for this, especially considering Encore itself was unusable for many people for the first 1-2 years. This is most likely just more of the same early-stage awkwardness we've come to expect from everything Tivo does.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  12. Apr 28, 2018 #72 of 448
    Dschelsea82

    Dschelsea82 New Member

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    Its a good assumption that the same people complaining about Hydra are still use Windows XP and AOL. Change happens so deal with it. There is nothing wrong with Hydra.

    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
     
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  13. Apr 28, 2018 #73 of 448
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    Several posts here about people trying Hydra and rolling back to TE3 at the expense of losing everything strongly disagree with that statement. But I'm glad there are people that do like it in a way, since perhaps it will give TiVo a little incentive to stick around a little longer than would otherwise be the case. TiVo already placed its bets on Hydra, so won't be backing out now no matter how much complaining from these forums.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
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  14. Apr 28, 2018 #74 of 448
    stile99

    stile99 Well-Known Member

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    How is this a good assumption when you have less than zero data to back it up?
     
  15. Apr 28, 2018 #75 of 448
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    LOL--but is there anything to back that assumption up?

    edit: I'm on Win10 on all my PCs/tablets (including one from 10 years ago) and have never used AOL ;), and the reported official and anecdotal detriments of Hydra (including the loss of the Live Guide, folder play, and show transferability from a PC) have kept me from adopting Hydra.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
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  16. Apr 28, 2018 #76 of 448
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Oh wise Sage, we are familiar with the TCF mantra. :D

    - You don't like change.
    - I don't have a problem, so you don't have a problem either.
    - You'll get used to it.
    - Hail Tivo. Hail Hydra. (literally.)

    BTW, I'm on pre-release Windows 10 software. Soooooo when I dial in from my Prodigy account, it takes a super long time to download those Win10 updates. Whatevs, email me. My ID is RPSX12A.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
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  17. Apr 28, 2018 #77 of 448
    BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    Even the guy who said "Hail Hydra" rolled back to Encore.
     
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  18. Apr 28, 2018 #78 of 448
    HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    A difference in the database that TiVo uses to keep track of everything would have nothing to do with the ability to play recordings remotely (recordings are not stored in the database).

    Scott
     
  19. Apr 28, 2018 #79 of 448
    stile99

    stile99 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, that kinda why I was surprised someone actually suggested it.
     
  20. Apr 28, 2018 #80 of 448
    ADG

    ADG Allan

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    lipstick on a pig
     

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