Netflix When?

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by Resist, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    Sep 15, 2006

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    The picture quality I get between my Samsung BD-P2550 and my Xbox 360 is EXACTLY the same. I am NOT able to tell the difference in PQ or SQ on either box.

    The reason I went ahead and got the Blu-Ray Samsung with Netflix capability EVEN though I have a Xbox 360 AND a TiVo that will do it in the future is:

    1. If I want to watch it in another room, while one of my other family watchings a different netflix movie in another room. They can grab the Xbox and Go. Leaving me with the TiVo/Blu-ray to watch.

    2. If one box dies... I am still able to watch Netflix while the box that died is getting repaired/replaced.

    In regards to watching Movies/TV Shows that you get on Blu-ray... I will say this...

    YOU CAN'T GET ANY BETTER PQ or SQ from anything other than a Blu-ray. (On a consumer level).

    Blu-ray provides up to 50mpbs bitrate at 1920x180p. HD-TV at best is 10-15mpbs.

    Blu-ray sound quality can provide Dolby Digital and DTS LOSSLESS audio in 5.1/6.1/7.1 capability.

    Currently NO OTHER device is capable of producing DD or DTS Lossless audio. (On a consumer level)

    TGC

    P.S. Blu-ray also provides capabilities that no other device can do as well. BD-Live capable blu-ray players can use the internet to enhance your movie watching experiance with extras.

    Blu-ray movies also have complete interactive movie as well. Check out "HOUSE 2". There are 300+ versions of that movie on Blu-ray depending on how you INTERACT with it! More interactive movies are on the way as well.

    Also keep in mind SOURCE material. Example:
    Casablanca. Filmed even before stereo and HD were wet dreams. The remastered Casablanca will look MUCH better on Blu-ray than regular DVD. BUT STILL WON'T look as good as Say Wall-E which was PRODUCED with all the expectations of releasing it on Blu-ray.
     
  2. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    Sep 15, 2006
    How fast is your Internet connection.

    I will agree... Netflix HD of HEROES was NOT better than the HD broadcast version of HEROES... However the PQ on my set was much better than SD DVD of HEROES. Now of course you CAN"T compare SQ because on NETFLIX... its only Stereo... DVD does provide DD5.1 Audio.

    I have a 20mbps downstream on my cable modem. I also have a Pioneer Elite 65" plasma too that does some really great Video processing as well.

    TGC
     
  3. pcbrew

    pcbrew Member

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    Mar 14, 2008
    DFW
    I think this may have been posted in another thread but here is a link to more info on the codecs and bitrates used for Netflix streaming. There is nothing more that stereo audio at this point - seems to be related to issues supporting it with the DRM they use.

    http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/encoding-for-streaming.html

    Netflix:
    - SD encodes are VC1AP at 375, 500, 1000, or 1500kbps (2nd gen encoder)
    - HD encodes are 720p VC1AP at 2600kbps or 3800kbps 24fps (film) or 30fps

    For comparison
    - DVD bitrates are 5+ Mbps MPEG2 (D1 = 720x480)
    - Broadcast HD is 10-18 Mbps MPEG2 (720p or 1080i)
    - Blu-ray is: probably north of 20 Mbps for 1080p24

    Yes, Netflix is using an advanced codecs that helps give some advantage over MPEG2 but they are still at a severe bitrate disadvantage. I Would guess anything that the lower bitrates don't look very good, as confirmed by comments in this thread.

    The Netflix streaming option is going to be a nice-to-have option but still no comparison for DVD or Blu-ray.
     
  4. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    Sep 15, 2006
     
  5. johnf@home

    johnf@home New Member

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    Dec 1, 2007
    San Jose, CA

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    I don't see an average bitrate on either of my two (count them, two) Blu-Ray discs. But a PS3 will show you the current bitrate if you ask it nicely.

    I suspect the highest bitrates would be if you were watching in 1080p/60. But my setup is capable of 1080p/24, so I'll rarely see the peak values; most of the Blu-Rays that I anticipate buying are movies, filmed at 24fps.
     
  6. Scyber

    Scyber Former ReplayTV User

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    Apr 25, 2002
    I agree that Netflix HD won't be as good as blu-ray, but I think you too easily dismiss the advantages of the advanced codecs that Netflix will be using. First off, many blu-ray movies use the VC-1 codec too. Those that do are usually below 20 Mbps range for video (see here for reference: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=3338). Also, the encodes are 720p, so that will be alot of bandwidth savings over Blu-ray too.

    I have seen a few bluray rips online and the quality is pretty good for a 720p rip of a bluray, and those are usually in the 5-6 Mbps range. But netflix should be able to get equal to better quality from their streams because they are encoding from the digital masters instead of transcoding an already compressed movie.

    As I said, I know the quality isn't going to be blu-ray quality, but I am pretty sure it is going to be "good enough" for me. At least for me to hold off purchasing a blu-ray setup for a while.
     
  7. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    Sep 15, 2006
    Not all the Blu-rays will tell you what the Bitrate is.

    Hellboy II Blu-ray doesn't say. However "Dr. NO" did. Some Blu-rays will tell ya some don't.

    I haven't seen any blu-rays "YET" that listed anything higher then 36mbps (Ice Age II). Blu-ray is just capable of doing 50mbps.

    I don't buy either. I rent all I watch from Blockbuster/Netflix

    TGC
     
  8. mchief

    mchief Morey

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    Sep 10, 2005
    Alexandria, VA
    Anyone have experience with LG's BD300? I have seen it at $308.
     
  9. johnf@home

    johnf@home New Member

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    Dec 1, 2007
    San Jose, CA
    Watching "Batman Begins" at 1080p/24 I'm seeing bitrates from just under 10 to a little over 20 mb/s. Presumably at 1080p/60 this would be higher.

    I'm not in the least surprised that the highest bitrate comes on a computer-generated animated movie.
     
  10. mohanman

    mohanman New Member

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    Dec 18, 2007
    Like all technologies.. there is a lifespan. I can't get myself to go out and start buying blue-ray movies at 19.99 each, when I just did that for the DVD! Who knows what will happen in the next few years.. have to do it all over again with some other format? Screw that. I'll stick with computer based downloads and stomach the picture quality for now.
     
  11. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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    Sep 15, 2006
    Exactly why I NEVER buy... I always rent... and now with unlimited movie rentals with Blockbuster/Netflix. There's never the need to buy. If your willing to put up waiting a day or two to get your movie back that you want to see again.

    TGC
     
  12. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Jul 10, 2004
    San Diego,...
    On TWF San Diego it varies quite a bit. I spent several months monitoring file sizes of every HD recording that I made, with my old SA8000HD (end of 2004, through summer 2005--see my old AVS Forum thread on the topic in the archives here). I spot check local cable rebroadcast bit rates every now and then and have compared them with OTA rates (much easier using TiVo :)). Locally, as rebroadcast on TWC, CBS averages a bit over 18 Mbps, ABC a bit over 17 Mbps, Fox 15-16, PBS about 15 Mbps and I'm not sure about the CW. Recordings of the same programs OTA have about a 1% higher bitrate--I'm not sure what the difference is about, but it's far too small to be due to cable system bit rate reduction, so I feel fairly certain that the stream on the cable system is functionally the same as the OTA broadcast.
    Where are you reading these numbers from? If you're getting them from TiVo's "Program Details" dialog, a GB is 10-to-the-9th power (one billion) bytes--assuming that, your recording of Lost averaged 18.77 Mbps (so you have seen broadcast HD at >= 18 Mbps :)), Bones averaged 13.77 Mbps, Heroes averaged 17 Mbps (exactly), Chuck averaged 16 Mbps (exactly) and Tru Blood averaged 19.77 Mbps. This is using the formula:
    filesize-in-GBytes * 8000 {Mbits-per-GByte} / 3600 {seconds-per-hour} = Mbits / second​
    Those are kind of funky numbers, particularly the one for HBO (I've been told that HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, etc deliver their content in relatively low bit-rate multi-pass encodings for verbatim broadcast by service providers--as measured on 2 systems I've never seen HBO HD content exceed 13 Mbps). Strange that the fractional part of the bit rate is either zero or .77 for each of them.

    Typically, broadcast programming bit rates are set by the local affiliates. Most of them receive their programming encoded at 45 Mbps--this is because it gets piped around their studios and processed to introduce local content and overlays and the higher the precision of the data, the less degraded it will be by the ordeal. They have to transrate the final encoding to fit broadcast limits (19.39 Mbps in a 6 MHz 8 VSB modulated signal)--they choose the final rate to suit their needs, and may be carrying some subchannel in their stream concurrently (like NBC's former "Weather Plus" and PBS' V-Me), lowering the potential bit rate for the main channel.

    Fox, who entered HD broadcasting almost last of all the networks, uses an elegant system which delivers their content encoded at broadcast rates, for direct transmission by their affiliates; they donated a piece of equipment to each of their affiliates with which to splice local programming and ads, station ID bugs and other overlays into the stream without ever decoding and re-encoding it. This gives them control of PQ and requires much less investment in equipment by their affiliates, who don't need HD encoding unless they're producing their own local HD content.

    In any case, this is off-topic. Sorry :).
     
  13. kb7oeb

    kb7oeb Member

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    Jan 18, 2005
    Phoenix,AZ
    So is the quality of netflix streaming on par with youtube?
     
  14. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    It depends upon the speed of your connection (read Netflix's explanation of what they're doing as cited above here). My laptop is always connected to my 46" Mits 1080p LCD panel (I'm composing this using it), so I've used the PC player for quite a while (according to the history on my account, since May 2007). I have a 10 Mbps cable modem link, so I almost always get its best quality SD encoding, which only requires 2.2 Mbps. If your line speed is lower, it will use a lower bit rate encoding, down to .5 Mbps, which has got to be something like typical YouTube PQ :D.

    EDIT: That Netflix blog entry says that for some things where the source quality merits it, their top quality encoding is 3.4 Mbps. It also states that, to get a particular speed, line speed has to measure at least 40% greater. So, to get the 2.2 Mbps encode, you need a 3.6 Mbps link; to get the 3.4 Mbps stuff, you need 5.6 Mbps.
     
  15. wmcbrine

    wmcbrine Well-Known Mumbler

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    Aug 2, 2003
    Although YouTube is improving... but I'd still expect more from Netflix. If for no other reason than that their sources are primarily DVDs, vs. webcams.

    I visited YouTube today (on my computer) and saw a larger, 16x9 window, which is interesting.
     
  16. TexasGrillChef

    TexasGrillChef New Member

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  17. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Jul 10, 2004
    San Diego,...
    Most of the HDD OEMs quote GB as 10-to-the-9th bytes on their packaging and user documentation. For one thing, it's a 7% larger number than when reporting in 2-to-the-30th GB units (which is what you'd see in Windows Explorer). For instance, the "160GB" Maxtor drive used in the Cisco/SA Explorer DVRs is actually 152.something 2-to-the-30th GB--152 x 2-to-the-30th is 163.2 billion (they also tend to round it slightly up or down to the nearest nice round number :)). Also, Joe Average can understand "giga" as meaning a billion, as it does in most other uses, like "gigawatt" and "gigahertz", but will only be confused by powers of 2. Some international standards committee actually created a bunch of new prefixes for powers of two: "kibi", "mebi", "gibi" and "tebi" instead of "kilo", "mega", "giga" and "tera". The abbreviations have a little "i" attached: "Kib" for 1024 bits, "KiB" for 1024 bytes, MiB for 2-to-the-20th bytes, etc (see this).

    I happen to know that TiVo's reporting of recording size is in billions of bytes, on both the "Program Details" dialog that you get by pressing INFO while viewing the recording's description and on the unsupported "Now Playing" webpage feature--it's congruous with how they describe the capacity of the DVR on their packaging and advertising. They don't want to say that a recording consumes 12.1GB when they actually mean 13 of the 250GB advertised. If you have a number in computing GB (such as displayed by Windows Explorer), you can modify the formula that I gave by replacing 8000 with 8590.
     

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