My Personal Series 3 Math

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by Sethb, Sep 19, 2006.

  1. treyj

    treyj Member

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    Atlanta, GA

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    I called Comcast here in Atlanta and they told me the card was free IF you turn in your cable box. Otherwise, it's $5 each, just like a box would be. My TV has a tuner but without a card, it's practically useless as they frequently change the channel lineup. I want to keep my cable box, so no cards for me. I guess if I had a S3 I wouldn't need the box, and then I could get a card. But of course, I'd want two, so I'd still end up paying $5 more.
     
  2. sommerfeld

    sommerfeld Lucky (?) 200 member

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    You left out one which was a big factor in my decision (I live in an area with two, and soon to be three, cable providers -- Comcast, RCN, and any month now, Verizon FiOS)

    Tivo +: Ability to switch to a competing cable company with minimal disruption
     
  3. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    But you are NOT paying for cablecards- $5 is the outlet fee. If you dont turn in the cbale box, they assume it's being used on another 'outlet' and charge you for the oritinal outlet (fed by cablecards) and a "new" outlet fed by the box.

    Some have speculated (but you need to find the comcast cablecard threads to confrim)- that since the tivo is connected to ONE outlet, then only ONE $5 outet fee should apply and you can still get 2 FREE cablecards.

    I think that has some ground to stand on- the FCC says addtional outlet fees should not be profit centers but should just cover the cost of whatever additonal upkeep and maintenance is required- since 1 cable card or 2 uses the exact same cable company infrastructure ( the wire) I think you could argue that only one fee should apply. I wouldn't want to be the first guy to have to take up that fight though...
     
  4. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    SD doesn't count. TiVo Series 2 wins the SD contest, hands-down.
     
  5. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    No, I think that's a tie. Dealing with swapping CableCards is as complex as swapping cable boxes -- maybe more so given how little the cable company techs know about CableCards at this time.
     
  6. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Have they passed any regulations regarding that, or is that just one of their "nice to haves"?
     
  7. MitchW

    MitchW New Member

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    Personally, I decided to wait for the S4 which, hopefully, will attach to a non-DVR HD Scientific Atlanta Cable Convertor. In that way I could get VOD and PPV which is not available for the S3 with Cable Card access.

    In the meantime, Scientific Atlanta has introduced the SA 8300 MR which will allow four HD TV's to access one server disk drive. Charter expects to introduce it in CT in about one month. The details can be seen at:

    http://www.scientificatlanta.com/consumers_new/CableBoxes/8300HDMR.htm

    I will just have to see how all this rapidly evolving technology plays out. Price AND technology are the TWO factors I will watch.
     
  8. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    I am fairly certain that the LAW/ or a CFR (regulation that has the power of law) that says so.

    The bit about 2$ or less for cablecards I believe was threatened so the FCC wouldn't decide to regulate that. SO that is not a law or CFR, so that's why the dinks sometimes charge over $2.
     
  9. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Sorry, I couldn't find anything like that.

    I would expect that the actual price for the CC rentals would be regulated long before an executive agency would try to regulate what can and cannot be a profit center. Even if there had been such a regulation at one point, I would think that the Bush admininstration would have struck such a provision down, the first chance they got, given that it would represent inappropriate regulation of the internal operations of a business. Government can legitimately restrict pricing but not the status of an operation as a profit center.

    From the Bush administration standpoint (and from that of a majority of Americans), it would be utterly reprehensible for the government to regulate that a business cannot profit from adding efficiency to a system.

    If you track down what you were thinking with regard to this, please post a link. I'll be interested to read it.
     
  10. nathanziarek

    nathanziarek New Member

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    Sep 1, 2006
    Doesn't look like it'll stream HD:

    Too bad, 'cause I would invest the $0 in that!
     
  11. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    I'm 99.99% sure it's in the 1992 cable act but at the moment I cant find the text of it. So it has nothing to do with the current bush administration- all these things are bases upon LAWS which cannot be ignored just becasue of the current adminsitrations leanings. (sure adminsitrations can manipulate and reinterpret laws based upon their leanings but this the 1992 cable act is quite clear)

    Essentially they are allowed to profit on selling NON-BASIC programming. Basic programming can only make a 'reasonable' profit. Equipment CANT NOT be a profit center- that's the whole point of the part of the law creating cablecards- the LAW says that the FCC shall ensure through regulations that consumers can readily buy their own equipment at retail. THe FCC's response to meet that ends has been to allow cablelabs to create the cablecard standard and hope that consumer devices are built with the slot.

    Cant find the taxt of the law this second but did find this q&A about it from the FCC website:

    http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/News_Releases/nrcb4009.txt




    I'll dig for hte act a little more if i get time...
     
  12. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    text of 1992 cable act found here:
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c102:6:./temp/~c102KC8r3u::


    with the specific section about equipment here:

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c102:6:./temp/~c102KC8r3u:e13603:

    it instructs the FCC to regulate rates for equipment and additional outlet feeds based upon actual costs:

    the FCC regulations can be found here:
    http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_05/47cfr76_05.html

    with the specific one about equipment charges here:
    http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/...ccess.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr76.923.htm


    which says:


    It's not always easy to follow laws and regulations so it's a little fuzzy, but earlier I found it clean and clear someplace else- unfirtunately I cant find it now...
     
  13. BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    May 15, 2002
    I thought this thread was discussing the S3 (and the S2 doesn't win hands-down).

    What I meant to say was that today FIOS lets you record in HD and SD, and MRV the SD. Neither S2 nor S3 can do this today. Or, for $1 more/ month, you can have two FIOS HD DVRs and no MRV. Which is OK for most people. How many houses really need more than two PVRs? (I'm asking the wrong people here in this forum -- the other 98% of the population would agree with me).

    MRV only makes sense if you start talking about three or more TVs. You'd have one PVR and the other TVs have plain $3/month boxes. I never understood Tivo's MRV philosophy -- I mean, you have *TWO* PVRs. Can't you use them both to record shows? For the shows where you're unsure where you'll watch it, can't you just record the same show on both PVRs? Having only one Tivo, is this a secret taboo I don't know about? :confused:
     
  14. MitchW

    MitchW New Member

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    Jun 4, 2002
    What is "switch video?"
     
  15. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Yes, please understand that the greatest legacy of Bill Clinton will be that he was the first pro-business Democrat to occupy the White House in practically everyone's lifetime. It was a major tenet of the DLC's attempts to redefine the Democratic Party. I wouldn't say the Bush administration is carrying the Clinton administration's torch on these issue, but clearly (and I think I said this earlier in this thread), since 1980 all American presidential administrations have supported these types of perspective, and the Bush administration is surely not going to be the one to reverse course.

    From your other comments, I'm not even sure that even you believe that.

    These are interesting:

    So the FCC cannot address situations where a municipality has allowed a cable company to charge what it wishes. Also, the FCC cannot address complaints that basic service is "too expensive" -- they can only address the case where "cable programming services" is "too expensive"

    So providing STBs that provide a better experience, i.e., online programming guides, or an easier to read online programming guide, or one that provides more on-demand choices, is justification for a rate increase over and above the rate of inflation and costs.

    So the limitation on the rate for rental of STBs is restricted to costs only when it is required to receive the basic service tier. If you choose to receive anything else (Discovery, TNT, etc.), then this restriction doesn't apply to the cost to rent that STB.
     
  16. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    So all this only applies to equipment required to receive the basic tier. As soon as you elect to get more than basic tier, your protections under that act are nullified.

    So all Comcast has to do is keep the broadcast channels unencrypted and analog, and they're golden.
     
  17. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Here's a link to a whole thread devoted to that question:

    http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316506

    From that thread:
     
  18. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    Jan 10, 2002
    NJ
    I'm not sure how ATSC retransmission works and I think that's what keeps cablecard costs low. I *think* (but am in no way sure) that the consuensus is ATSC if they are carried must be free and in the basic tier. So the cablecards needed to map those would be bound to that (and I'm guessing that's where the FCC's threats to keep the cards under $2 comes from?).

    Also, as I said, I cant find what i found earlier which was more clear, but I'm almost certain that the "addtional outlet" fee is specifically called out someplace else (maybe in one of the cablecard orders??)- and that ONLY applies to digital cable.

    So while they can screw with boxes, the cablecards and the addtional outlet fees I think are hands off as far as profit.


    (and dont want to get poilitical- but you are correct- I'm sure different administrations manipulate things, but what I should have said is this is all old news from a 14 year old law with regulations that are probably 10+ years old too- so I dont see them going in to mess with things. If new issues come up, like cablecard 2.0 and switched video, or postponing the July 2007 cablecard dealing, then I sure do think the administrations views count- just dont see them going back in the change these old things...)
     
  19. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    So if they keep broadcast channels on analog and unencrypted (i.e., no STB, no CableCard necessary), then they're free-and-clear of these regulations. Alternatively, they could provide CableCard for the basic tier, and require a STB (with unregulated pricing) for everything beyond that.

    And that all makes sense. The public interest being served by these regulations is citizens' access to news and information, as well as EI programming, from their local affiliates. There isn't a public interest ensuring that everyone can watch Mythbusters.
     
  20. pkincy

    pkincy New Member

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    Sep 23, 2006
    Scottsdale/L...
    Wow this thread has been jacked. Do you guys allow that in this forum?

    Back to the thread subject:

    I have been excited to get my HD Tivo back. I currently have an HR10-250 with DirectV.

    But after realizing it is not just hardware costs it is $800 a box plus $300 for a 3 year deal that has to be repeated.

    Also I need 2 Series 3s. So that is $2200, plus the 2 SD TVs in the house.

    I can afford it but simply won't. At that price I can keep both my DirectV and Cox cable (have had both for about 4 months now, with an SD and HD on each service) for a long time until one gets clearly in front of the other.

    I love Tivo and certainly would pay some cost for it. And that cost would probably be the $800. I don't mind a one time cost. But the $300 recurring cost and at what may be an increasing cost doesn't spell value to me.

    So I will continue with my inferior but cheap cable DVR and my free (I have lifetime) Tivo on my satellite service.

    Perry
     

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