MoCA set-up for Edge for Antenna - 2021

Discussion in 'TiVo Edge' started by Parks, Feb 18, 2021.

  1. Parks

    Parks New Member

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    KRKaufman, I am using the XT8 as my main Router, It is connected by Ethernet to two CT8's and then connected by WiFi to three other CT8's. My ISP is Comcast with a 1 GB service. The max wirelessly connected nodes recommended by ASUS tech support is four nodes, so by having 2 of my 5 nodes connected by ethernet, I stay below their node limits for wireless nodes. Using the XT8 as my main router has strengthened my entire network profile.

    I needed all the nodes because one node was needed in my detached garage and another node was needed in my Honeybee Apiary to link up the bee hive monitoring equipment I have in those hives. The reason I need 3 nodes in my house was not due to the size of my house (less than 2,000 sg.ft.) but because it was built in the late 40's and has a massive brick chimney in the middle of the house and the walls are double layer drywall and my WiFi signals were never strong until I installed the ASUS mesh network. It's been one of the best investments (it ain't cheap) I have made in technology. Besides, the ASUS tech support is at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to TiVo.

    By the way, I really appreciate your clear and truly helpful post to this thread. I was amazed at how much I really didn't understand about how a MoCA setup worked. I doubt I could explain much to anyone by myself, but this community has provided extremely helpful information that has allowed me to set-up my network in a much cleaner, simpler and functioning network. Thanks!
     
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  2. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Emphasis on functioning! ;) There’s good people here, truly; I’ve learned much over the years.


    Re: the ASUS XT8 and CT8 nodes ...
    Any reason you didn’t link more than 2 nodes via Ethernet? (It would seem that the more linked via hard-wire the better, at least present day.)

    If Ethernet availability was a roadblock to hard-wiring more than just the 2 nodes, note that MoCA could be used as the wired backhaul for any additional mesh nodes where there’s coax availability — leaving a wireless backhaul only for those mesh nodes where neither Ethernet or MoCA connectivity is possible.

    Further, if MoCA is a backhaul option for one or more mesh nodes, you may want to reconsider your choice of MoCA adapter ... possibly upgrading from the bonded MoCA 2.0 TiVo Bridge Plus (which is just a rebranded Actiontec ECB6200) to using MoCA 2.5 adapters. To be honest, if still within the return window for the TiVo Bridge Plus, it’s difficult not to recommend an upgrade to a goCoax WF-803M MoCA 2.5 adapter, regardless, given the upgrade/price comparison. (As an aside, both adapters are overkill strictly for a TiVo Mini LUX MoCA connection, since the Mini LUX supports only standard MoCA 2.0.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
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  3. Parks

    Parks New Member

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    KRKaufman , I would have used ethernet connection for all nodes if ethernet were available. The problem with these late 1940's hoses is that it is a real PIA trying to run ethernet and/or coax to all the desired locations.
     
  4. Parks

    Parks New Member

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    My appreciation goes out to all who have contributed to this thread. Your willingness to participate and share your knowledge and insights has taught me a lot, but more importantly, it has allowed me to configure my network where all devices are now working flawlessly and as desired. Thank you so much.

    Please see the attached "FINAL" diagram of my network as it is currently configured.

    0 - FINAL Moca Layout.jpg
     
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  5. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    I’m interpreting that as “No coax outlets, either!” Alas...

    Glad things are working.


    edit: ... though the mystery remains how you managed 4 Ethernet connections from the XT8.

    E743C5FC-E905-4814-99CE-3B2A2ED5A408.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  6. Parks

    Parks New Member

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    Nov 8, 2020
    ASUS Mesh Network.jpg
    krkaufman, connected to the XT8 is a (1) switch with 8 ports for office computers, printers, scanners, etc., (2) a homerun to a 10 port switch in the basement where the TiVo edge and a wired CT8 Node and all the other various TV equipment is connected and (3) an empty RJ45 jack.

    See the attached JPG of my Mesh Network
    ASUS Mesh Network.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  7. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Yeah, figured at least one switch must be involved. That level of detail can be critical in troubleshooting some TiVo connectivity issues. Thanks for the reply.

    Enjoy...
     
  8. HoTatII

    HoTatII Active Member

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    One more question I have related to this thread that I mentioned in passing earlier that I'm confused about.

    Even though the OP of this thread's setup is not doing it. I still see those with gigabit rate cable internet service using DOCSIS 3.1 combining MoCA signals and connecting conventional POE in-line filters on the same coax as the cable internet signals.

    But I thought DOCSIS 3.1 was planing to eventually use frequencies as high as 1794 MHz (such as in this article here from '15 ,
    https://www.broadbandtechreport.com...437152/moca-vs-docsis-31-whose-spectrum-is-it) which completely overlaps the 1125-1675 MHz MoCA band.

    Has this frequency plan simply not been implemented yet or been abandoned and the DOCSIS 3.1 cable signals will remain below a 1000 MHz for the foreseeable future?

    As I thought the days of combining MoCA signals with cable internet ones were really numbered years ago because of this. ...

    Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk
     
  9. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Answered your own question, there. There's an "initial rollout" range that runs up to 1218 MHz, but few, if any, are even doing that. The typical problem encountered is use of a DOCSIS 3.1 cable modem/gateway with active MoCA signals ... and the D3.1 modem being confused by MoCA signals within the D3.1 frequency range and becoming unstable. Quick fix ... use a prophylactic (i.e. a MoCA filter) on the modem's coax port to protect the D3.1 modem from the MoCA signals.

    Just dealt w/ yet another user w/ this problem over on reddit, here.

    And quoting one of the later posts to that thread...
     
  10. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    (1) You probably haven't seen many instances of DOCSIS 3.1 signals above 1002 MHz being integrated with a MoCA network. One roadblock to that is finding a "PoE" MoCA filter that would support the shifted pass band/stop band.

    (2) The MoCA filter you mention isn't just installed "in-line" or "on the same coax"; they're installed directly on the DOCSIS 3.1 coax port to keep MoCA signals out of the modem.
     
  11. HoTatII

    HoTatII Active Member

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    Ok great ...

    Thanks for clearing that up ...

    But for cable modems that require a MoCA filter installed on their coax input jack. We're now talking about two POE filters aren't we?

    One still needed on the main incoming CATV coax line to prevent back-feeding into the cable system and the other at the input to the modem?

    Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk
     
  12. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    No. One MoCA filter at the point-of-entry (PoE), and one "protective/prophylactic" MoCA filter on the cable modem/gateway. (That's what you get for calling it, simply, a "POE filter." ;))

    From the referenced reddit thread...
     
  13. gtwilmot

    gtwilmot New Member

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    I too am trying to set up a MoCA network with my brand new EDGE. Would one of you experts out there be kind enough to comment on the schematic I'm about to build. Hopefully this will work for my situation, but I don't know what would happen if I wired it wrong. Schematic.jpg
     
  14. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    EDGE for Cable (CableCARD) or EDGE for Antenna (OTA)? (Guessing the latter; just want to make sure)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  15. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Addl questions/thoughts...
    • What's with the modem & router in a Frontier fiber optic setup? Do you actually have both a modem and router? If so, what are the model #s for each device? (I'm thinking you may have a MEB1100, FCA251 or some other MoCA WAN adapter, rather than a modem; and a NVG468MQ as your router.)
    • Regardless, since your MoCA LAN won't be on that stretch of coax *and* because you're a FiOS fiber setup, you won't need/want a "PoE" MoCA filter on the coax stretch between the ONT ("black box") and the router location.

    • Do you only need the MoCA signal extended to the Living Room location, where you have the second MoCA adapter installed? Or you have designs for pushing the MoCA signal to other rooms (MBR & GBR), at a later date?
     
  16. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Assuming you only need MoCA extended to the Living Room, something like the following would get that done, plus get the best possible antenna signal delivered to the EDGE box (using a passive splitter, anyway)...

    Schematic - mod.jpg
    edit: p.s. Plus a few more of the many possible alternatives, a product of procrastination, should you want the MoCA signal spread a bit wider...

    Schematic - mod alt.jpg Schematic - mod alt2.jpg Schematic - mod alt3.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  17. HoTatII

    HoTatII Active Member

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    Also in these diagrams be sure to use a "balanced" 3-way splitter with about a 5.5 db signal loss on each output. And not the cheaper "unbalanced" ones with around a 7-8 db loss on two of the outputs and 3.5-4.5 db loss on one of them.

    Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk
     
  18. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Where called for, certainly.

    But in this diagram where the top-level splitter is a 3-way, sending the ANT signals to the devices connected through the "Office TV Cabinet" and ANT+MoCA to the bedrooms and Living Room, an unbalanced 3-way splitter would be preferred, with the EDGE, with its built-in split(s), connected to the low-loss output port.

    And in the other cases with the TVs all connected via a secondary 3-way splitter, an unbalanced splitter might still be preferred, depending on what happens to the "TO MBR GBR" coax line beyond where it cuts off in the diagram. (i.e. if it is split to service two separate rooms, with this line then benefitting from a connection to the low-loss port)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
  19. gtwilmot

    gtwilmot New Member

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    Mr Kaufman (I assume that's your name)...

    Sorry for my delayed response to your quick submissions.

    I really appreciate the time and effort you put into correcting and explaining changes to my original sketch. I've taken one of yours (primarily because of the closeness of the antenna to the TIVO) and simplified it some more. I don't believe I need two ethernet cables from the bookcase to the TV cabinet, so I have used an ethernet splitter. I also eliminated the antenna-only TV's from the picture because I believe the MoCA cables plugged directly into the TV's do not require adapters. Am I correct in saying that simply replacing the MOCA adapter with a TIVO Mini would allow TIVO at the living room TV? The RF TIVO remote that came with the EDGE will control the Office TIVO nicely.

    Again, my sincere thank you for your efforts !!
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Using a network switch would make more sense, though I'm not sure what you mean, specifically, by "Ethernet splitter" or the "2x" in the diagram; the smallest network switch I've seen, IIRC, is 4 ports. And you'd need it to be a Gigabit Ethernet switch.

    This doesn't make sense to me. How will these TVs be getting their OTA signal?

    As for simplification, the Office TV Cabinet could be simplified further by using an unbalanced 3-way splitter as your top-level splitter, with the low-loss port connecting to the EDGE; the other outputs of the 3-way would connect to the Office TV and the MoCA filter attached to the MoCA adapter, as currently pictured. The 2-way splitter downstream of the MoCA adapter would be eliminated. For example:
    Schematic1 mod.png


    Re:
    ...and...
    upload_2021-4-8_18-25-35.png

    Yes, this is true. But you'd be losing the wired connection for the Smart TV and its apps. The Smart TV's apps can probably function OK over wireless, but keeping them wired would help your overall wireless performance. To that end, an alternative to replacing the MoCA adapter with a Mini would be to add a network switch at the Living Room TV, connected to the MoCA adapter, allowing the future Mini and any other Ethernet-capable devices a hard-wired network connection -- while maintaining the OTA antenna feed, as a backup should a live tuner be unavailable via the TiVo setup.

    If you *do* stick w/ the Mini/adapter swap approach, an antenna/satellite diplexer could be used in front of the Mini to effect the same signal diversion you have with the MoCA adapter's RF pass-through port, to keep the OTA antenna signal fed directly to the TV. (MoCA adapters use an internal diplexer to direct the signals rather than a simple splitter.)
     

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