MoCA set-up for Edge for Antenna - 2021

Discussion in 'TiVo Edge' started by Parks, Feb 18, 2021.

  1. Parks

    Parks New Member

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    Nov 8, 2020

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    First off, let's all agree that Edge for antenna does not have MoCA, which most of us only realize after buying and returning a 2-tuner TiVo Edge for Antenna from Channel Master (from the TiVo web page link) and then purchasing a 4-tuner TiVo Edge for Antenna from Amazon. Why, because the 2-tuner Edge doesn't work with the new mini's.

    Secondly, I want to point out that the illustration of how to set-up a MoCA setup for the TiVo Edge for Antenna in the Tivo Knowledge base is flat out wrong, see attached (TiVo Knowledge - MoCA Setup - TiVo Edge for Antenna). It simply does not work. I set it up their way and it didn't work.

    I have redrawn their wiring using my equipment in my home and then constructed the wiring per my drawing of TiVo's instruction, see attached (0 - MoCA Layout-Page-1). It did not work.

    Then, I just thought, what is a MoCA network Bridge trying to do? It's trying to combine a over-the-air (OTA) TV signal with an internet signal to produce a MoCA (Multimedia over Coax Alliance) signal.

    So, I just connected the roof-top antenna coaxial cable to the coax input of the TiVo Bridge Plus, then connected a CAT-6 ethernet cable from my router to the RJ-45 input of the TiVo Bridge Plus.

    The coaxial output from the TiVo Bridge Plus is connected to a MoCA rated (5-2300 MHz) 3-way splitter for sending MoCA signals to 3 of my TV's. My office TV connects wirelessly to the router via WiFi Mesh to retrieve a MoCA signal. See attached (0 - Moca Layout-page 2). It works flawlessly.

    I hear a lot about TiVo customers being less than satisfied with TiVo's customer service/Tech support during the years since it was bought by Xperi Holding Comapanies (XPER on Nasdaq Global Select Market) but this is the first time I have actually proved conclusively that their advice is flat out wrong.

    Let the Good-Times roll!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
  2. HoTatII

    HoTatII Active Member

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    Yeah, but I'd say in fairness to TiVo here ...

    Even though in their original drawing they confusingly used the picture of a router. Notice it is labeled as a "gateway."

    Which appears to mean that TiVo's hookup diagram is for customers with cable modem-router combos (or "gateway" devices) that have MoCA capability built-in.

    Therefore, in such a setup there should be no ethernet cable connection from the TiVo bridge to an ethernet port on the gateway as in your second diagram. But only to the single port on the Edge OTA.

    So TiVo's illustration here is not for a physically separate modem and router as your setup uses. But for those using a MoCA enabled CATV gateway for internet access.

    Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk
     
  3. snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

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    It isn't that simple. TiVo's illustration is just flat out wrong on several levels. For one, most providers that supply internet using a cable modem will also have catv signals on the same coax, whether or not the customer is paying for TV. These signals will clash badly with the OTA signals. Even without this clash, the connection in the illustration will result in very little (if any) OTA signal reaching the TiVo. As configured, the OTA signals will flow "upstream" through both spitters and be absorbed by the ISP connection. Simply put, whoever created this diagram was rather clueless as to how splitters interact with RF signals.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  4. snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations on figuring out that TiVo's illustration was bogus.
    Just for clarification, MoCA doesn't mean "OTA/catv plus internet." MoCA essentially uses certain frequency bands to transport ethernet signals over coax. The OTA/catv signals use different frequency bands so that they don't clash with MoCA. It would be more accurate to think of MoCA as "WiFi over coax" while the OTA/catv signals share the same coax.

    A couple of notes on your new configuration:

    The PoE filter that connects to the modem isn't really doing anything useful and can be removed. Leaving it in place will give slightly weaker signals to the modem, but since there are no splitters between the ISP feed and the modem, you won't see any difference. Removing it would eliminate one potential point of failure in the system.

    For best results, the PoE filter from the roof antenna should be connected directly to the coax port on the Bridge. Technically, this PoE filter might not really be necessary, but since you've already got it you might as well use it. The Bride has an internal diplexer that separates the MoCA signals from the OTA signals, and this keeps most of the MoCA signals off the antenna. Using the PoE filter on the Bridge ensures that much less MoCA signal reaches the antenna, but the diplexer inside acts in a similar manner.

    With your current configuration, OTA signals should be reaching the bedroom and kitchen, but I'm guessing that you don't really need that, and those TVs are using their respective Mini's as their only means for getting OTA stuff. If that is true, then the OTA signal strength at the Edge could be improved significantly by connecting the coax from the roof antenna directly to the Edge, bypassing both the Bridge and the splitter. Since the Edge for Antenna does not have built-in MoCA, the OTA signals are the only signals that need to be on the coax that connects to the edge. This also means that the other coax would only have MoCA signals, so there would be perfect isolation between the OTA and MoCA signals, thus no PoE filter would be required (or even beneficial) in the new configuration. After that, the 3-way splitter could be replaced by a 2-way splitter, or the 3rd output of the splitter could be used for another Mini (office maybe?).
     
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  5. HoTatII

    HoTatII Active Member

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    Ok, I guess all those are reasonable points for why the TiVo diagram is wrong.

    And I'm also not sure the TiVo diagram would work with DOCSIS 3.1 service for internet anyhow ...

    Because doesn't DOCSIS 3.1 use frequencies up to 1218 MHz in the initial stage and then up to 1794 MHz in a later one?

    This not only means a standard POE filter on the incoming CATV line should actually be interfering somewhat with the downstream signals from the ISP. But worse the ISP's downstream signals are overlapping into the 1125-1675 MHz frequency range of the TiVo MoCA 2.0 bridge.

    Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk
     
  6. Parks

    Parks New Member

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    Snerd, I do appreciate your assessment and it all sounds reasonable, even though I do not fully understand some of the technical implications. So, I have redrawn my "REVISED" wiring diagram to confirm if I have understood correctly the configuration you are suggesting. Please advise, see attached Revised Moca Layout.jpg
     
  7. snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty close. You can run coax from the antenna directly to the Edge without going through a splitter. Any time an N-way splitter is used, the signal power is divided (roughly) by N, so you get the strongest signals by avoiding splitters or by using splitters that only have as many outputs as are actually needed. If you need to splice the coax, you can use a barrel connector to make the splice. The OUT port of the Bridge can be left disconnected, or you can cap it with a 75-ohm termination.

    I'd be happy to answer any additional questions you have.
     
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  8. Parks

    Parks New Member

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    Nov 8, 2020
    Snerd, My antenna feed into the house is in my office closet with the Modem, Router & TiVo Bridge Plus while the Edge is in the basement TV room. If I run the antenna directly to the Edge, I will not have an antenna coax to connect to the Bridge, hence the splitter.

    Secondly, am I to understand that the ethernet connection to the Bridge Plus will facilitate getting the OTA signal to all of the other TiVo minis via their internet connections whether by ethernet or WiFi?

    That would result in the following Diagram
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  9. HoTatII

    HoTatII Active Member

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    If I may add ...

    Your TiVo Minis are clients connected by ethernet over coax MoCA.

    They don't require a connection to an OTA feed antenna through the internal diplexer of the TiVo bridge as you had before.

    Only the output of the bridge to a 2-way splitter is needed by the Minis. The OTA input to the bridge may be left open or capped with a 75 ohm terminator cap.

    Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk
     
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  10. Parks

    Parks New Member

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    Nov 8, 2020
    HoTatII, I find your reply confusing.
    I have three Minis:
    (1) bedroom (Mini Lux - A95) - Coax & Ethernet
    (2) Kitchen (Mini Lux - A95) - Coax & WiFi
    (3) Office - (Mini - A93) Ethernet only

    Are you saying that only the two Mini Lux (A95's) require connection to the coax output from the TiVo Bridge Plus? would you clarify for me?
     
  11. HoTatII

    HoTatII Active Member

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    In fact in the installation to my Edge OTA. The internal diplexer of the MoCA bridge I'm using for it (a Motorola MM 1000) recently went bad.

    So I had to improvise an external one for it by using an old-style satellite/OTA diplexer to separate the D band MoCA signals on the incoming antenna coax out through the satellite port to the input of the MoCA bridge. From the coax OTA signals sent out through the OTA output port to the Edge OTA antenna input.

    Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk
     
  12. HoTatII

    HoTatII Active Member

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    Yes, just like the drawing in your post #6. ...

    You just don't need the OTA antenna feed to go to a splitter with one output going to the bridge like that. But may remove that splitter altogether and just run the OTA coax straight to the ant. input of the Edge.

    And either leave the OTA input to the bridge blank or cap it with a 75 ohm term. cap.

    Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk
     
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  13. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Disheartening that TiVo is still publishing that as a solution, mixing OTA antenna and cable signals on the coax, carrying over the flawed implementation from past diagrams. (see here for a past critique)

    No fairness is warranted. TiVo has had years to correct their diagrams where they're mixing OTA antenna and cable signals on the same coax. (i.e. The issue of the gateway actually being a MoCA-capable gateway is trivial compared to the hassles associated with introducing both OTA and cable signals on the same coax plant.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  14. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    A few things to understand:
    • The only device that requires the raw OTA antenna signal in your setup is your DVR, the EDGE for Antenna.
    • The TiVo Mini's are network-only devices and receive all content streamed over their home network connection, whether the live-tuned or previously recorded OTA content from the host DVR, or content streamed via one of the supported apps. If networked via Ethernet, a Mini requires no coax connection.
    • An Ethernet or MoCA network connection is preferred for TiVo Mini's, but wireless can work if Ethernet or MoCA isn't possible.
     
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  15. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    That's taking things a bit far ... or not far enough.

    Per the updated diagram, with nearly all your devices networked via Ethernet to your router, you have no need/use for MoCA, and so the TiVo Bridge Plus MoCA adapter serves no purpose.

    Typically, a MoCA adapter connected to a LAN port on the router acts, effectively, as a MoCA access point -- similar to a router's built-in wireless access point -- providing the link/bridge between the router's LAN and MoCA clients connected to the shared coax. But if you have no MoCA clients, there's no need for a MoCA/Ethernet bridge (/access point).
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  16. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Sidebar Re: this statement from the OP...
    Others have reported that the 2-tuner EDGE for Antenna *does* work w/ Mini's (i.e. can be set as their host DVR), even if the 2-tuner model lacks built-in MoCA functionality and having just 2 tuners makes conflict-free recording and live TV viewing problematic. The EDGE for Antenna would just need to be networked via Ethernet, either directly or via a MoCA adapter; same goes for the 4-tuner EDGE for Antenna.

    My eyes/ears are open to hear otherwise Re: basic Mini compatibility of the 2-tuner EDGE for Antenna model.
     
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  17. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    If the Kitchen Mini LUX can be connected to your coax plant, there *would* seem to be value in establishing a MoCA network on your shared coax, as a MoCA connection for the Mini would be preferable to using Wi-Fi.

    (And you can scrap the coax connection for the Bedroom Mini if it can be connected via Ethernet. It only needs one or the other to get network-connected.)
     
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  18. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    To provide a MoCA connection for just the Kitchen Mini, your "2nd Revision" diagram could be further revised, using the TiVo Bridge Plus to provide a dedicated MoCA connection for just the Kitchen coax outlet's coax line. Something like the following:

    2nd Revision Revised for Kitchen MoCA Connection.png

    edit: p.s. If you find you have MoCA needs for more than just the Kitchen Mini, then the little red "---coax---" line can increase in complexity to suit your needs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  19. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    As an aside, I see that you're using an ASUS ZenWiFi XT8 as your router. Do you have additional XT8 mesh nodes? If so, how many, and how are they connected to the main XT8 router?
     
  20. snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

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    In your second revised diagram, the Bridge isn't actually doing anything since there are no coax connections.

    It is important to understand that the Mini's don't need and can't use OTA signals. The Edge has tuners for converting the OTA signals into a digital data stream that is fed to the Mini's either through ethernet or MoCA, depending on how each Mini is configured. Although your system did work by passing the OTA signals through the Bridge and to the 3-way splitter, which fed OTA signals to the Edge and two Minis, the only OTA signal path that mattered was the path from the antenna to the Edge. The changes that I've recommended allow the OTA signal to be passed directly to the Edge, which results in stronger OTA signals, giving less chance of having signal issues due to bad weather or other factors.

    Going back to the revised diagram in post #6, it uses two 2-way splitters for the coax connections. Coax from the antenna connects to the input of a two way splitter, and that splitter has two outputs that each connect to coax, one output going to the Bridge and one output going to the Edge. You can remove that splitter and use a barrel connector to join the coax from the antenna to the coax going to the Edge, then you will have a direct connection from the antenna to the Edge. The other length of coax from the splitter to the Bride can be removed, and the OUT port on the Bridge can be capped with a 75-ohm termination. The Bridge doesn't actually need any OTA signal, and it can provide MoCA signals from the IN port to the other splitter to form the MoCA network going to the bedroom and kitchen. If both of those Minis are then set to use MoCA, the ethernet/Wifi connections can be removed. Using MoCA for the Mini in the kitchen will probably give a more reliable connection, because TiVo and WiFi don't always play well together.

    Since the closet with the modem, router and Bridge is in the office, it might be better to use a wired ethernet connection for the Mini in the office. But if the WiFi connection is working and doesn't give reception problems, you could leave it as-is.
     

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