Moca Network, minis, OTA etc

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by tommage1, May 18, 2017.

  1. tommage1

    tommage1 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, a few questions as I know very little about Minis and Moca networks.

    First of all am considering setting up a Moca network at a relatives place. Right now they have cable, a Roamio 4 tuner and a Bolt 500GB. I know the Bolt could be used to create a Moca network but only if in the room with the router, it is not, don't have a TV in the router room at all. And the internet itself is not cable, it is DSL. So here is what I am considering. First I guess I would need a Moca "adapter"? Hook it up to the router/gateway to create the Moca network. Then could connect the Roamio and Bolt to the Moca network which would be running through the cable coax? Also considering adding a Mini. I know mini uses a tuner from your Tivo/Tivos and connects through the Moca network. So I guess it would use a tuner from the Roamio or the Bolt, will I have a choice? When a tuner is used by a Mini does that prevent the Tivo it is using the tuner from from recording on that tuner? IE for example if you had a 4 tuner Tivo and bought 3 minis, would you only be able to record on one tuner in the Tivo since the 3 minis would be using the other 3 tuners?

    Now another situation, a system with multiple Tivos, Bolt, Roamio, Series 2/3s. Only the Roamio is using cable TV, all the others OTA. The Roamio/cable is attached to the cable Coax in the wall, the OTAs direct to the antenna with splitters. No Tivos in the room with the router/gateway. So Moca, is it possible to "merge" the OTA antenna into the cable coax so all the Tivos could use Moca? For the series 3s I'd assume would need a Moca adapter for each? And a Moca adapter in the room with the router/gateway. The series 2s, well not sure about those at all as they use wireless adapters, no Ethernet connection and they need digital converters. Is there some sort of USB to Ethernet adapter where you could eliminate the wireless adapter and use Ethernet (this question valid even if not considering Moca, just be able to connect series 2s to a wired Ethernet network). This whole scenario seems pretty complicated which is why I am asking before I start buying any hardware, see if all this is possible ;)
     
  2. V7Goose

    V7Goose OTA ONLY and Loving It!

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    Your Bolt does not need to be near the router at all - if you have an Ethernet cable running to the Bolt, it can create the MoCA network. Once that is done, any TiVo that supports MoCa and is connected to the same coax can connect via MoCA. Splitters in the coax are fine, but some may not be MoCA compatible.

    Combining cable and OTA coax runs into a single MoCA network is probably not feasible for most folks. While is should be technically possible, you will probably run into lots of interfering signals. There is no problem mixing MoCA with wired and/or wireless Ethernet, so in your example, the simple solution would just be to have the Roamio connected wired or wireless, and all the OTA boxes on MoCA (or wired/wireless Ethernet if you like). The only box you cannot use wireless with is a Mini.

    Understand that MoCA is just a path for the Ethernet signal, the same as the wireless network or Cat6 cables are just different paths. All boxes are on the same Ethernet LAN, so the specific path used to reach an individual box is meaningless.

    DSL internet is not an issue in any way. In fact, it may be slightly better than cable internet for MoCA simply because you do not need to worry about a second POE filter with OTA.

    With a Mini, you tell it which other TiVo on the same network is its primary host (simple to change at any time). Once that is done, it will always use a tuner from that host when watching live TV. But you can stream from any other box on the network without changing the host.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  3. tommage1

    tommage1 Well-Known Member

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    Well in the case of the relatives network there is no Ethernet connected to the Bolt or Roamio, they both use wireless. Which is pretty slow, part of the reason I am considering Moca for them along with the possible Mini. Thanks for reply :)
     
  4. fcfc2

    fcfc2 Well-Known Member

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    I will just be responding to the first paragraph. You are probably going to need 2 MoCA adapters, one for the 4 tuner Roamio and one for making the connection to and from the DSL router. Please note you need to connect this MoCA adapter to the common coax setup and be able to make an Ethernet connection to the DSL router. If you are able to do this then you would just be connecting to a MoCA network on the Bolt and likewise the coming minis. You will also need one MoCA filter aka POE or Whole Home DVR filter on the input of the first splitter to enter your home. Problems with MoCA are most often splitter related, so if you run into problems consider upgrading to MoCA rated splitters like these. Cable and Satellite Tools - Distributor of Tools for CATV, Satellite, Home Theater, Security, Telecom
    The same company also sells MoCA filters.
    Minis can chose to connect to either the Roamio or Bolt. When the mini is using "live" TV, it does use one tuner from the host DVR but it does not use a tuner if watching a recording or one of the streaming services. Minis left idle, will release their tuner in 4 hours, but it is good to train folks using a mini to hit the Tivo button when they are not going to be watching any longer as this will immediately release the tuner. Tivo DVR's always reserve one tuner for themselves.
    PS. You might want to take your whole 2nd situation and split it into another thread.
     
  5. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    OTA antenna and cable TV/Internet operate within the same frequency range, so they cannot coexist on the same coax line. However, owing to MoCA being up in the satellite frequency range, antenna/satellite diplexers have been found to be useful in allowing MoCA to slip between OTA and cable TV coax segments.

    Whether and how diplexers could be used to facilitate your second setup would be dependent on the specific coax runs available, and how they connect to your antenna, cable and MoCA sources. (A diagram would be helpful.)
     
  6. V7Goose

    V7Goose OTA ONLY and Loving It!

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    Other than the problem of how to connect a Mini, wireless connections with a Bolt run at a pretty decent speed - certainly plenty fast for video streaming.

    I have one Bolt connected wireless for testing right now, and my Mini cannot tell the difference between it an the other boxes on the LAN. For comparison, I just did a program transfer into the wireless box, and it reports 47 Mb/s transfer speed (I have seen it close to 60). My basic tests of transfer speeds with MoCA have typically shown below 300 Mb/s, and 1G Ethernet has been as high as 700 Mb/s. So while a wireless connection is obviously way slower than the maximum speeds with either MoCA or Cat6 cable, it all really just depends on what you want to do with it.

    To me, a Bolt wireless connection seems plenty fast enough for any TV watching or streaming. My Samsung 4K UHD TV is sitting right above one of my LAN switches, so I could easily connect it via Cat6, but I did my initial testing with the wireless simply because the TV just set it up automagically for me, and it has been so perfect for Amazon streaming that I have never bothered to run the wire down to the switch! The TV wireless streaming works much better than the Amazon app on my wired Bolt.
     
  7. Kimo

    Kimo Member

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    I will just add that the Electroline EDA-2400 signal amplifiers (which are really amplified splitters) that are required in my particular system set-up absolutely prevented me from successfully setting up the MoCA network that I had planned to set up, so I was forced to bite the bullet and pull Cat 6 to the two remote areas that I had hoped MoCA would obviate the need for.
    Amazon.com: Electroline EDA-2400 4-Port Cable TV HDTV Signal Booster/Amplifier (Retail Package with 5-Year Warranty): Electronics
     
  8. Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    You have a very good handle on this all, as a start--please don't sell yourself short. :)

    For the Series 2, you could buy a USB-to-Ethernet adapter. TiVo has a list of a smaller number of approved or successful such adapters at its website. Do note that the benefits are limited, as it really only potentially would serve to speed up transfers to and from the box (which are limited themselves, to SD shows), as the Series 2 does not stream (although a show can be watched as it is transferring, creating a streaming equivalent); also, physically, a Series 2 has a severe limit on transfer speeds, even when connected physically. In the end, I never ended up getting a USB-to-Ethernet adapter for my Series 2, including given the limited use and benefits.

    And just adding to fcfc2's nice explanation of Mini's and tuners, note that you choose dynamically--that is, whenever you want--as to which TiVo box to connect your Mini to, and when and how long to grab a tuner for--there's lots of flexibility there and you are in control.

    For simultaneous use of cable and OTA, note that the OTA TiVo boxes on your system can use indoor, tabletop antennas--your coax. wiring line need not be used for that (reception permitting).

    And as you are envisioning this, keep in mind that the MoCA adapter (either a separate device or as part of a TiVo box which has it built-in) wired up to your router also needs to be connected to your coax. connection--that could be a physical wiring difficulty (it is for me). There is a "hybrid" possibility around that which TiVo has hinted at but hasn't affirmatively endorsed: using the coax. MoCA network between all your boxes and Mini's to do the heavy data transport, but having this "circuit" connected back to your router via wireless, using a wireless bridge at one of your TiVo boxes (physically wired to your box but transmitting back to the router wirelessly)--this connection to your router does not generally have as heavy a data demand on it as does the connection between TiVo boxes and Mini's.

    A couple of other possibilities: some people have managed all of this wirelessly, between boxes and router and Mini's, using wireless bridges at the Mini's. Note that this tends to be more the (exception) rather than the rule, requiring a robust wireless network (and sometimes using possibly heartier wireless bridges at TiVo boxes rather than relying on the boxes' internal wireless adapters, to further strengthen the network); TiVo does not endorse this approach (repeatedly noting the need for an Ethernet or MoCA network), although it is "safe," and even where initially successful, this network sometimes has been known to struggle later--but it can work, and has. A second possibility: creating a Powerline network, which uses your house's electrical wiring for the physical connections--this requires a Powerline adapter at each appliance (TiVo boxes, Mini's and router). Again, YMMV, and best to get robust Powerline adapters; not endorsed by TiVo, but, again, it can work, has, and is done.

    Breathe deep, and let it all sink in. You already have a good handle on things.
     
  9. tommage1

    tommage1 Well-Known Member

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    Since so many helpful replies I will just thank you all right here :) The minis using/releasing tuners is great info. Did not know I'd need a Moca adapter for the Roamio 4 tuner either, that is definitely a consideration, added cost for my relatives place. The second scenario is theoretical really. Everything is working well right now. Most of the Tivos are in one room including the Roamio that uses cable (not the room with the router) so I run a LONG ethernet cable from the router room to an ethernet switch in the main Tivo room. Then the newer models and the S3s connect to the switch. The S2s still on wireless. One other room at this time, Bolt and 4 tuner Roamio, both connect by ethernet running through a poweline adapter (it works very well, all green lights and streaming between the main room and the second room is pretty much flawless and fast). Both of those are OTA. I was considering adding a couple other rooms, maybe with minis connected to the cable 6 tuner Roamio in the main room. If I did that would have to use Moca so wanted to see if I could get the whole shebang, the OTA and the cable on one Moca network since I'd like all Tivos on one network :) May just have to physically give it a shot with a few of the Tivo spread between 3 rooms to see what happens. Can create a Moca network with a Bolt in the router room temporarily and disconnect all the current ethernet/switch/powerline temporarily. Only thing holding me back really is the fact everything works so well right now, hate to possibly "mess it up".
     
    Mikeguy likes this.
  10. tommage1

    tommage1 Well-Known Member

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    Just thought of one more thing. Perhaps the s3s cannot hookup to Moca under any circumstances? If so if I went to Moca in the second scenario then there would be no way to have all the Tivos on the same network, the newer models on Moca, S3 (and S2) limited to Ethernet and/or wireless?
     
  11. V7Goose

    V7Goose OTA ONLY and Loving It!

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    I guess I am too wordy and do not explain myself well, but try re-reading my first response (maybe you have not even seen some of the edits I added after the initial post?).

    In short, a MoCA network is NOT actually a separate network in your house since it is BRIDGED to the Ethernet LAN by another device. - it is just a different way for your boxes to connect to your existing Ethernet LAN. ALL your TiVo boxes connected via wireless Ethernet, wired Ethernet or MoCA will see and communicate perfectly with each other so long as they are all getting an IP address from the same router. You have only one network, just three different ways to connect to it.

    Your S3 boxes can connect to MoCA with a MoCA adapter, just like they could connect to wireless with a wireless adapter, or Powerline Ethernet with a Powerline adapter.
     
  12. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Right, presuming the S3 is connecting to the wireless adapter via an Ethernet connection, rather than USB. In each case the S3 is connected and configured for an Ethernet connection; the S3 doesn't know and doesn't need to know what you might be doing to bridge that Ethernet connection to your LAN.
     
  13. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Way too many variables and possibilities to offer a specific recommendation. Yes, MoCA is likely doable, though that depends on available coax runs and how they interconnect; I'd avoid any segments other than Ethernet or MoCA if at all possible (i.e. eliminate any Powerline or wireless connections).

    Also, diagram, diagram, diagram...

    e.g.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. V7Goose

    V7Goose OTA ONLY and Loving It!

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    Huh?? This makes no sense at all. Everything else you said is correct, but an Ethernet connection is always an Ethernet connection - it makes no difference at all if it is through a USB-attached adapter or not.
     
  15. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    See this product and review your statement. Where's the Ethernet? Using a USB-connected wireless adapter would not be "just like" using a MoCA or Powerline adapter, which exclusively require Ethernet connections.
     
  16. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    From your description, your cable-connected 6-tuner Roamio Plus|Pro is connected via Ethernet, so there wouldn't be a need for MoCA to be added to your cable coax line(s), and so no need for any diplexer workaround. You just need to connect all your MoCA-targeted outlets to the OTA antenna coax plant, structured to preserve signal strength for the locations actually requiring the OTA antenna signal, and establish a MoCA network on your OTA coax lines. edit: (Don't forget the "PoE" MoCA filter.)

    The key factor is that the Minis receive their content streamed over the home network, so a MoCA-connected Mini attached to the OTA coax plant will still be able to connect via the home network to your Ethernet-wired 6-tuner CableCARD'd Roamio.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  17. V7Goose

    V7Goose OTA ONLY and Loving It!

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    Your statements continue to make no sense at all. What is the point of suggesting somebody look at an old TiVo wireless USB adapter? That just proves my point. Any TiVo box connected with that wireless adapter can communicate and transfer files between any other TiVo box on the same LAN.

    ANY type of adapter that allows a S3 box (or any computer) to communicate over an Ethernet LAN and get an IP address from the router IS "just like" any other Ethernet adapter. Period. Once your box has a valid IP address on the same LAN, it has communication over that LAN with any other device that is not blocked by some type of security or lack of a particular protocol.

    I repeat one last time: Once a TiVo box has a valid IP address shown in the Network Diagnostics, it IS EXACTLY "just like" any other way to get a valid IP address so far as the functioning of the TiVo is concerned.
     
  18. tommage1

    tommage1 Well-Known Member

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  19. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    You may be able to avoid the MoCA adapter for the 4-tuner Roamio.

    Note that were you to establish a MoCA network on your OTA coax plant, the BOLT that is currently connected via Powerline could (should) be converted to a MoCA client connection -- which you could then leverage to extend wired networking to the 4-tuner Roamio, as well, plus any other Ethernet-capable devices co-located with the MoCA-connected BOLT.

    See here for more info.
     
  20. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    What continues is your misinterpreting my statement, which was exclusively scoped to what was quoted... and which had nothing to do with the IP layer. Simply put, connecting and configuring a USB-connected wireless adapter is not "just like" using a MoCA adapter, Powerline Ethernet adapter or an Ethernet-connected wireless adapter, especially since the USB-connected wireless adapter would need to be a device explicitly supported by TiVo.
     
    JoeKustra and fcfc2 like this.

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