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Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by michad, May 11, 2010.
One thing that bothered me about the "light" was it sounded a lot like the Force.
You can't retcon something that never had a back story in the first place.
I honestly can't see how anyone can come to a different conclusion...this conclusion may be wrong; but right now, all the evidence point to it as correct
I was annoyed about replaying the part where Jack and Kate found Adam and Eve...almost insulting the viewer...of course we got it!
I hope whatever Jacob drank is a fountain of knowledge since nothing was passed down to him...I also assume it gives him special powers since he now would never age, can heal mortal wounds, travel at will to any place on earth...etc.
I think it's kind of a merger. The way MIB acted with Jacob in Ab Aeterno, and the end of Season 5, says to me he's been "possessed" by Smokey, but Nameless Brother (Bad Twin?) is still in there too.
And lately I think there are signs that there's some John Locke in the guy too.
That's what I surmised.
You know, I was too, but then my husband (really smart guy, casual Lost viewer) said he didn't remember Jack and Kate finding Adam & Eve.
That scene aired almost 5 years ago. And although it gets brought up on TCF frequently, the Adam & Eve mystery hasn't gotten much play on the show.
One thing we learned is that Jacob and Nameless Brother aren't the best cowboys. Because "all the best cowboys have daddy issues," and these guys have some serious mommy issues.
Great episode. The writers were speaking to us fans with the line from Mom: "Every question I answer will simply lead to another question..."
This episode gives us a general framework for the Jacob/MIB plotline; we will be talking about 'what's really going on' there for years to come. But their story is a backdrop, the real story is the 815ers, and I think we will get a much more detailed resolution to that story.
ETA: So glad Adam and Eve weren't Rose and Bernard or Jack and Kate...
Jacob doesn't know how to lie.
Agreed, he just can't wrap his mind around the concept that they planted it into the first season knowing full well that when they got to the end, Adam & Eve would be the people we saw tonight.
For YEARS I felt this way about Babylon 5, which did the same thing, but I've come to realize over time that there are people who don't watch as closely as I do.
YES! I was thinking the same thing when I watched it.
And for the record, "the writers" are Damon Lindelof & Carlton Cuse.
Because what's worse than just being dead is being dead, plus having some evil smoke monster take your memories, and your body. I think that's what she meant. I think they tried to make it clear in the episode that MIB - the real one before he was thrown into the hole by Jacob - was not really evil. In fact I would argue that Jacob is more messed up than MIB. When they both found out that the woman killed their real mother, MIB has a normal human reaction and wants nothing to do with her, and also wants to go live with the people he would have been living with in the first place, had his real mother not been killed. But Jacob takes the news that his mother was killed with an "oh well" attitude. MIB may have been wrong to kill his "stepmother", but he was sort of justified after she killed all of his people. Jacob killed his brother by throwing him in the hole - I think the very fact that they showed him laying the brother/MIB's body beside the woman/stepmother's body means that the real MIB is really dead. The smoke monster is just some evil entity that took on the form of his body, as well as his memories.
I personally think that Smokey is a combination of the evil in the source and the disembodiment of MIB.
I also didn't get why Jacob thought his brother was the favored one...I don't recall seeing either one get preferential treatment...I think they should have shown us that more clearly (other than the characters mentioning it as a fact)...
I thought this was a great episode and don't understand all the hate here.
Man, some of you are going to be crazed after the finale is aired.
Or so Jacob thought.
Not to mention that he was staring at the ocean like he wanted to see what was out there before Really Dead Mom showed up.
Did she kill them?
And if she did kill them, maybe she waited because she didn't know that they were close to breaching the Source wall.
And was her behavior related to the Island Sickness?
I am amused that Mark Pellegrino is playing "the Good Son" here and "the Bad Son" on Supernatural.
I got that feeling and the gift of the game telegraphed it. Jacob didn't know about the game but we have to assume there were other indications he WAS aware of.
I'm pretty certain they didn't have this specific story in mind for the bodies when they put them there. That was, what, the third episode? I read (I can't remember where) a quote where they didn't really sit down and roadmap the series until half-way through the first season, when they knew it was being renewed. Most of the stuff was written on the premise of "wouldn't it be cool if..."
That last I think I read in EW's special lost issue this week.
Maybe after Jacob was given the drink by his "Mother" and she said something like "You and I are now the same", Jacob magically gained the knowledge of what "The Light" was and what would happen if he entered the cave. Then maybe Jacob was so outraged by his brother killing his mother that he threw his brother in the cave knowing he would turn in to the Smoke Monster and would never be able to do the one thing that he wanted the most which was to leave the Island.
Across The Sea rewatch notes
Love the title, now that I've seen the episode.
Great that there wad no "previously, on Lost".. Just went straight into it.
Like Tivotion, I too called out loud to my wife "She looks *really* pregnant.. They're going to be twins!"
As was said, I also was entertained by her always apologizing. It makes even better the previous scene where Flocke tells James that he's glad he apologized.
She drank from the stream before giving birth. I'd wonder if this was relevant but it hardly seems relevant since Mother can make them special herself.
Loved that the rules keeping them from killing each other came from their mother. So simple. She wanted to rid them of that one curse of being "a person". "I've made it so you can never hurt each other".
Interesting to see that *she* was the origin of MiB's view of people and that they always come, destroy, etc. I said this out loud like one scene *before* she said those exact words..
The advice the mother gave could be heeded by some here: "Every question I answer will simply lead to another question."
The actual mother said "it's coming", and since we know there were twins, she really meant "they're coming". That's also the last thing Jacob ever said alive.
Wow.. Such a peaceful opening, right up to "I'm sorry", head-smash-with-rock, and then LOST.
Jacob's first words in the episode:
"What is it?"
MiB's first words:
"It's a game. You play it."
Their game board has hieroglyphics on it. There's at least a sideways ankh on one of the squares.
Liked the consistency of seeing mother weaving as Jacob had in the foot statue.
Re: it's turtles all the way down (love that quote) - there's a huge sea turtle on the beach with MiB.
I loved the casting of mother.
MiB was "special". She said so, and he could see dead people.
When MiB asked "what's dead?" and mother answered "something you will never have to worry about", did she mean that she'd made MiB and Jacob not age past a certain point and made rules that they can't kill each other? As it turns out, maybe she was right for the wrong reason, and maybe she was wrong. If MiB dies (his body certainly did), she's wrong. If he lives on in smokey, she might be right (so far anyway), but not the way she meant/wanted.
Can we date any of this by the types of clothes the men are wearing that stabbed the hog in front of MiB and Jacob? They're wearing some bone necklace thing, leather wrist guards, an arm brace/armor thing, etc.
I half expected those people killing the hogs to be wild crazy versions of Jack & co.
The light cave is at the end of a long walk through tall bamboo that looks like the same bamboo that Jack woke up in in the pilot episode.
"they come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt, and it always ends the same".
Hey, whoa, wait a second. Speaking of her saying "I've made it so you can never hurt each other"... Jacob clearly hurt MiB.. He floated him into a cave and his dead body was there later.. Was she unsuccessful, or did her success take the form of making MiB stay alive no matter what? Why do those rules apply later if smokey is just smokey taking on the shape and thoughts of MiB?
And let's not forget that we've seen hieroglyphics next to an ancient picture of the smoke monster.. And there were hieroglyphics on the board game, so this is at least after hieroglyphics were invented. So smokey would seem to predate MiB being floated into the cave..
A little bit of this same light is inside of every man.. But they always want more.
MiB wants to use the light to get off of the island. Jacob has promised to protect the light. Maybe that's why he can't let MiB leave.
Meaningless data: Their playing board is a 10x3 grid.
Their cave felt distinctly like the cave they lived in in Land of the Lost.
When smokey became Christian and led Jack to water and the caves, he also led Jack to his own dead body.
When Jacob brought MiB to the cave, he'd already drank the wine and made the promise, and he and his mother were now "the same". That meant he had "powers" then.. So maybe part of what happened to MiB was Jacob's deliberate action (via powers, not just floating someone into a cave of light)?
Now we know why Jacob (and presumably his people) would want to hide away from "people"... That's what he grew up doing.
My love, you need to know this. Whatever you have been told, you will never be able to leave this island!
They mentioned a storm was coming..
Thought it was great that MiB himself was part of the people who walked around digging wells, especially when Flocke was telling that story to Desmond.
Another thing we saw: the setup of MiB believing people in general were all greedy, manipulative, untrustworthy, and selfish (bad), and jacob not being so sure.
Hey.. Jacob was like "that's impossible. There's no way off this island".. All he learns after that is about the wells and magnetism. Yet we see Jacob off-island to touch Kate's nose, etc. Looks like becoming the protector includes powers that let you leave?
So the knife was MiB's.
No foot statue reference.. Hmm..
So they were digging wells because MiB was telling them to because he wanted to find another way to get at The Light..
We finally know where "home" is that MiB wants to get to - Across The Sea..
So, were there multiple wheels, or was it a mistake that in this episode the wheel room has sunlight pouring into it and it looks 15-20 feet deep tops, but the Orchid elevator went "deep"?
Personally I thought it was great to see MiB building the wheel. Excellent.
So he referred to the light underneath the island.. Remember, when Locke was hanging in the well, and the island flashed, he saw light coming from the bottom of the well below him, too.
Jacob asked mother if she was going to let MiB go. Her answer was that she didn't have a choice - it's what he wants. Is that about free will? Jacob doesn't honor that...
What's down there? Life. Death. Rebirth. It's the source. The heart of the island.
Hey.. Did Richard ever drink that wine?
"You don't really have a choice" she tells him, before he has to promise to guard the island as long as he can. That explains why he'd tell Ben "No matter what he told you, I want you to understand - you have a choice.." - because HE didn't, and people should appreciate when they do!
MiB walking into camp and seeing it and everyone burned down felt very much like Luke returning to find Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru dead.
Nice touch that the way he knew to go there was the smoke filling the sky..
Mother seemed to know she wad going to die, even before getting back to the cave. She didn't know exactly which moment though - she was surprised to see/feel the knife (she'd just been looking at the black piece, btw).
She says Thank You to MiB for freeing her.
MiB: You can't kill me Jacob. She made it that way. You can't!
Jacob: Don't worry brother, I'm not going to kill you.
Jacob's last line of the episode: "Goodbye brother. Goodbye.". It didn't feel like he knew he'd be visited by The black smoke monster taking the shape of MiB...
Yeah I felt that pulled us out of the story. For us, it would have been better to not have the cutaway. For most people, it's good it's in there, or we'd be explaining that to people too (and having some of them even doubt us)...
The Allison Janney character delivered a verbatim quote of MIB's line in last season's finale, "They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same." She didn't want anyone coming to the island. Jacob's mission is clearly not the same as hers was.
She also made no sense in explaining to the children how important the light is. She implied some kind of cosmic damage, "everywhere," if anyone gets to it. But if there's nothing else other than the island (which is what she was telling them at the time), what cosmic damage could there be.
The deliberate dialog written to obscure MIB's name (or, worse, to imply that he doesn't have one) was absurd.
In all, I had a feeling I would be disappointed in what I saw tonight, and I was. They explained precisely nothing about what the smoke monster is, what is so evil about him, and what happens, anywhere, if he leaves. Nobody says that you have to keep what's on the island, or in the cave, away from the world. It was the other way around.
Last week we were lead to believe "I just want to go home" was just a ruse. Now we find out it's real?
Maybe the people who got the "sickness?"
Which brings up an interesting question. "Mother" whispered some Latin words over some wine(?) and made Jacob the new protector of the "light." With Jacob dead, how does the next protector get chosen (and initiated)?
I think the words, "life, death, rebirth" were also used to describe what was in the light.
Supposedly we all have a little bit of this light inside us, and "it is never enough." That sounds like life-force, and the light is the fountain of youth or something (which is interesting because Mother and Jacob seem to have the power to grant immortality). And "if the light goes out here, it goes out everywhere" makes it sound like there is a finite amount of light, which almost sounds like a reincarnation thing.
MIB was supposedly "special" ("Mother" told him so, and he repeated it later), so maybe the light wouldn't turn a "normal" person into a smoke monster. Odds are that Jacob and CIB/BIB/MIB weren't your average kids.
The protector philosophy seems to be to just ignore or stay away from other people on the Island until they start messing with the "light." All the Dharma folks were gassed, and when the US Army started messing around with a nuclear bomb (back in the 50s?), the "Others" attacked them as well.
I agree 100%. It really ruined it for me seeing CJ from the West Wing on the show. But according to the recent audio podcast, Cuse and Lindelof really wanted her for the role.
I was excited for a second -- I thought it was some kind of crossover to the current storyline, or a flash-forward or something. But then I realized it was just a flashback for story purposes.
I was wondering about this -- "Mother" told BIB that no matter what anybody told him, he'd never be able to leave the Island. At the time, I thought that also applied to Jacob. But Jacob obviously left the Island a lot. So why, at that point (before she knew Jacob would be her replacement), did she tell BIB he would never be able to leave the Island?
There was the scene on the beach where BIB thought that Mother was going to be mad about him playing the game. Then she told him that she had left it for him to find. And she told him he was "special." I definitely got the impression that BIB was her favorite.
When MiB was telling her about his idea of getting to the light from somewhere else, she asked:
"The people with you - they saw this, too?"
When he said yes she looked distraught, as if she were thinking "damn, now I'm going to have to kill them now".
So maybe she didn't want to have to kill anyone, but felt forced to when she heard that they knew about the light.