Lost 4/29/09 "The Variable"

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by Rob Helmerichs, Apr 29, 2009.

  1. May 1, 2009 #121 of 171
    latrobe7

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    No one is overlooking that it's her destiny. It happened to her; so obviously that is her destiny, right?

    What doesn't make any sense is that destiny would need to be consciously guided - or that it could be. "Making sure that destiny happens" is inherently contradictory.
     
  2. May 1, 2009 #122 of 171
    TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

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    Unless, of course, there is a forked road with two destinies, and she chose one branch Kwisatz Haderach style, which she was inevitably destined to do. And now she can't see the future anymore as a result. Hey... did this show rip off Dune?
     
  3. May 1, 2009 #123 of 171
    cheesesteak

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    I was disappointed that young piano playing Faraday didn't have a scraggly beard too.

    Little girl Charlotte must have been thinking "Who is this creepy old dude? I'm going to start yelling if he gets any closer."

    I surprised that none of the "bad" Dharma people chased Kate, Jack and Faraday after the fire fight.
     
  4. May 1, 2009 #124 of 171
    DUDE_NJX

    DUDE_NJX Well-Known Member

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    He wasn't that good with the piano... I guess Eloise was right.
     
  5. May 1, 2009 #125 of 171
    bruinfan

    bruinfan Well-Known Member

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    so enough with speculating on what might be... freaking explain to me what is... what is faraday saying. since no one will explain it to me, cuz apparently either no one knows or everyone but me knows, i looked at the transcript...
    still confused.

    a: how does the constants factor into time travel? by constants, i'm assuming he using the term as before, to stabilize the consciousness jumping.

    b: how does the consciousness jumping mesh with the time travel

    c: how does the 'variables' change anything. this whole time there have been variables. the way i see it, the variables have always been making free will and it always fell back to whatever happened happened. what changed?

    the incident happened, so somehow, whatever faraday does or chooses shouldn't matter.
     
  6. May 1, 2009 #126 of 171
    jkeegan

    jkeegan Active Member

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    Faraday was wrong (now.. he was right earlier).

    In this episode we saw a Faraday who had been away from the island for a while, who didn't have reminders in front of him that he already knows what happens.. After enough time, he'd naturally think "well hell, at least I should try!", which would lead to "hey, maybe I can save Charlotte!!! I miss her so much!!!"..

    He tried changing what's going to happen at the Swan site, and it looks like he will fail. The last bit of proof we see that he actually realizes this (and that he realizes that what he'd known all along was actually true - that what happened happened) was when he sees his mother's face. He puts two and two together and realizes that she always knew that she'd killed her son when she was younger.. his expedition to go out and try to change things wasn't a "new" expedition - he had always tried making it right then.. and it always resulted in him being shot by his mother then.

    What happened, happened.
     
  7. May 1, 2009 #127 of 171
    bruinfan

    bruinfan Well-Known Member

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    hmmm... i was under the assumption that daniel was the one that explained the rules... so whatever he says is canon. but what you're saying is that's not necessarily the case.

    so is the whole variable thing a nonfactor? something he invented to make his new theory fit?

    did daniel actually die?

    and the big hole i keep seeing is that in 2004, eloise knew she shot her son in 1977, but daniel has never been on the island before 2004. so i'm waiting for that to be explained.
     
  8. May 1, 2009 #128 of 171
    brermike

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    What?? Eloise knew she shot her son starting in 1977 when she actually shot him. It's part of her history. It doesn't matter that in 2004, Daniel hasn't yet travelled to the Island. He ultimately will, and ultimately be sent back to 1977 where she shoots him. She already experienced that. He has yet to experience that in 2004.
     
  9. May 1, 2009 #129 of 171
    brermike

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    I don't think he was referring to constants in the same way as needing a constant for consciousness time traveling. He was talking more mathematically. Prior to him going to Ann Arbor, he believe that whatever happened, happened. That any decision or action that they took in the past, had already happened. There was nothing variable about it. In his mind, it didn't matter what they did, they would do what history recording them doing. In this scenario they are constants. After spending time in Ann Arbor and researching and doing whatever, he has changed his position. He realizes that their decisions can be variable, thus they are the variables. Now, the real questions are why did he change his mind, and is he correct? Judging by the end of the episode, his new stance is incorrect and in fact whatever happened, happened. Though, I'm guessing Jack and Co. will try to change things like Faraday theorized but ultimately they won't change anything. By trying to prevent this incident, they will in fact cause the incident that history recorded. However, I could be completely wrong :)
     
  10. May 1, 2009 #130 of 171
    hefe

    hefe Rebus Philbin

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    He said it, but I've thought right from the start that it was his own speculation, and that doesn't make it canon. Characters can be wrong. Or partly wrong.
     
  11. May 1, 2009 #131 of 171
    bruinfan

    bruinfan Well-Known Member

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    which is where it gets messed up...SHE experienced it, but HE never has.

    she shot him... however, how could she shoot someone that had NEVER been there before. this is what i was trying to get at earlier....

    Daniel's string, or record, or timeline, tells us that the first he's heard of the island is in 2004. he had never been on the island until 2004, and the only reason he was on the island in 1977 is cuz he jumped there.

    he was born, raised in england, went to oxford, studied time travel, got brain damage and forgets things, saw the plane crash footage and was crying (still not sure why), met widmore and first heard of the island, went to the island, then jumped around until 1974.

    he's never been to the island to get shot the first time when eloise remembers it. so who did she shoot? unless they reveal daniel has been on the island before... that's the hole i keep falling into.

    yeah, that would make more sense... it's just that ever since he'd been introduced, he was the time travel authority.
     
  12. May 1, 2009 #132 of 171
    brermike

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    I don't think you are understanding the time travel on Lost correctly. There is no first time. There is only one time. This might help. Think of the events from Eloise's point of view. This is the sequence of events:

    1954: Elle and Widmore capture adult Faraday and friends. They tell them to bury Jughead in concrete and then vanish.

    1970 or so: Ellie gives birth to baby Faraday. Not sure the details here, but it should be around this time.

    1977: Adult Faraday comes running into the Others camp and is shot by Eloise. She then finds out this is her son all grown up.

    1978 or so: Eloise is off island with tween Faraday and makes him stop playing the piano.

    2004: Eloise convinces adult Faraday to go to the Island.

    2007: Eloise helps Jack and Co. get on Ajira 316.

    There is no first time. From Eloise's point of view she shot her son when he was flashing back to 1977. 1977 was his present. Throughout his life, she knew he would end up there and be killed.
     
  13. May 1, 2009 #133 of 171
    bruinfan

    bruinfan Well-Known Member

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    i'm starting to get it.... just one question...

    so since it's faraday's present, he couldn't have NOT been there to get shot?

    i see how it's eloise's past, so it happened, ... ugh... this is what happens when i try to analyze time travel... so it goes back to destiny? since it happened, once eloise gives birth to daniel, she knows his fate? so for daniel, it's also whatever happened, happened, cuz no matter what, he gets shot.

    another question, (or maybe the same question asked a different way, i don't know anymore)

    if it happened for eloise, what is driving daniel's present to converge with eloise's past? fate? destiny? so everyone's life has been predetermined by fate, by the actions of those in the past?
     
  14. May 1, 2009 #134 of 171
    Fool Me Twice

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    I think we have to use an Eastern conception of time as circular with no beginning or end rather than Western which is linear. One could view the Eastern conception of fatalism as being trapped in a wheel, and the Western conception as being predetermined by initial conditions. At least, this is basically how I've been thinking of it when they introduced "what happened happened".
     
  15. May 1, 2009 #135 of 171
    Turtleboy

    Turtleboy Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    I'll be very disappointed in the show if they stray from "what happened happened" and move into alternate timelines or "fixing the broken universe." That plot device has been done to death in Star Trek, Back to the Future, Quantum Leap, Voyagers, etc. I have no evidence that Rob is wrong or right, but if he is right, I'll be very disappointed with the show reverting to a well worn sci-fi trope.
     
  16. May 1, 2009 #136 of 171
    Fool Me Twice

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    See the rabbit in the glass? Click for a larger view.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. May 1, 2009 #137 of 171
    stellie93

    stellie93 Well-Known Member

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    In the beginning Daniel says to Jack,"she was wrong, you don't belong here at all." So all this "we have to go backkkk" stuff is just a mistake? And Eloise really doesn't know what's going to happen or what to make people do? Or is Daniel wrong? The whole variable thing seems stupid to me. There's nothing about free will that he or every other scientist didn't think of before. You do have free will if there's no time travel, which there usually isn't.

    At the time when Daniel sees the plane on TV, he hasn't experienced any connection to it except meeting Desmond, who wasn't even on the plane. Why all the tears?

    Theresa was out of body traveling like Desmond did. If Daniel was exposed to the same thing, did he do that? He's never mentioned having any knowledge of the future he isn't supposed to have. But maybe he just didn't remember.

    Was I supposed to recognize the shapes engraved on the notebook his mother gave Daniel? That's the notebook he carries all the time?

    Daniel seemed to do a double-take when he saw Richard. Is that because he didn't age since the 50's?

    When the hatch blew they called it an implosion. That fits in with the theory of the H bomb "sucking up" the energy... sort of. :confused:
     
  18. May 1, 2009 #138 of 171
    bruinfan

    bruinfan Well-Known Member

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    the electomagnetic release, aka the incident, is the reason women can't have babies...

    like chernobyl...

    has this been said before?
     
  19. May 1, 2009 #139 of 171
    hefe

    hefe Rebus Philbin

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    Is that the same rabbit from the bus by the airport in season 1?
     
  20. May 1, 2009 #140 of 171
    PKurmas

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    I don't either was wrong. Daniel was right in saying "you don't belong here" because people just aren't supposed to skip willy-nilly through time, etc. But Eloise was more right because in 2004 Eloise knows that in 1977 she saw Jack & Kate with the man she shot in the back who she then found out was her son. So given the opportunity to help Jack get back to the island, of course she's going to... even if she doesn't know how they'll time travel to get to 1977, she knows they were back on the island & *chooses* to support that.

    And anyway, I still don't think Daniel's going to be dead. Maybe they need to visit Miracle Max at the Temple, but Daniel's the son of two natives & was likely born on the island. He may even have been raised there but doesn't remember because his brain is full of holes. Just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't happen. We could even a 6-7 year old Daniel next Wednesday.
     

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