It's not the hard drive or the power supply...Random power up hang

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by sender_name, Mar 24, 2016.

  1. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    Feb 11, 2005
    Northboro Ma
    So I have 2 series 3 tivos. I have fixed both the power supplies and both are on replacement hard drives.

    I accidentally did the "Dvr Diagnostics" on one of them yesterday and it hung (I figured out in the past that if you have had both channels tuned with full buffers the DVR diagnostic freezes and you have to unplug to reboot)
    Well I didn't want to unplug it so I did some other things while waiting and forgot and it sat on the screen for 24hrs...

    Today I unplug it to reboot and it hangs on the "Welcome, Powering Up" screen..

    I tried several times to unplug and plug it but nothing.

    Kickstart won't work, It reboots instead of running the test.

    I take the unit apart and run WD DIagnostics on the drive. Smart passes, and the drive checks out as fine on the scan.

    I wondered if it was the power supply so I used the power supply from my other tivo...

    Still hangs...

    I pop the cable cards out...

    Still hangs...

    I know from past experience that if the "Welcome, Powering Up" screen lasts more than 5 min you're not going to get a boot and you have to unplug and try again...

    Randomly on one of the reboots with the cable cards out it boots. I push the cards in and play a recorded show...All is fine...

    I reboot to test and it hangs again...

    I am sure it isn't the power supply and the drive test out fine..

    I did notice on one of the screen display flashed on and off rapidly and then the "Welcome, Powering Up" screen became more of a magenta and pinkish gold (bad color display of the tivo log) and this flashed a few times and then it hung on this screen...

    Double ewe tee Eff?

    Thoughts?
    Any thoughts on this?
     
  2. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    So I dug up the original hard drive from my series 3 (we'll call it tivo A) and put it in tivo B. It seemed to start up normally but of course said there was a hardware failure because it was from a different tivo....

    So my thinking is that somehow the boot partitions for the tivo drive got corrupted?

    I was trying to run Kickstart 52 on it but I can't tell if it's working. I wait for flash, hold pause, hit 5 2 and it accepts and reboots in about 20 seconds..However the reboot yields the "Welcome, Powering Up" screen.

    I can't find any info on what will display when Kickstart 52 is running. Does it just display the WPU screen or does it show something else? Is it just hanging and not booting again or is it running it the background and I need to wait it out?

    Thanks?

    Side note...tivo feet disintegrated on tivo A when I took it out of the entertainment cabinet to use the power supply...ugggh...
     
  3. lew

    lew Well-Known Member

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    Mar 12, 2002
    You have to run the WD extended (overnight) test. A drive can pass Smart but not work bin a Tivo. Also check/replace hard drive cable, if possible.
     
  4. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    yeah...I ran the write zero's last night... :)

    I ran the extended overnight last night...took 5hrs so It looks like 1hr per 100mb and it passed...

    I swapped out the HD and it booted with the included cable...

    I'm really thinking/hoping that the drive data somehow got corrupted when the stupid dvr diagnostics hung for 24hrs...

    The issue is that so far with 10 tries I can't get any kickstarts to run on that drive...


    I wonder if I can pop it in a pc and use winmfs to repair the tivo boot partitions?
     
  5. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    When you say that you fixed both power supplies, are we talking replacing all of the medium sized capacitors with Low ESR, high temp replacements, or only the ones that were visibly bulging.

    Have you used a voltmeter at any point during your troubleshooting?
     
  6. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    One of the tivos had a replacement purchased power supply from weaknees (my parents old tivo) and the other I replaced nearly all if not all the capacitors...I used the list http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10233968#post10233968 from this thread and replaced them...

    The weaknees power supply would be the one that is failing already if it is a power supply...It was a refurb swap/replace that probably has less than a year on it. You can see the ones they swapped out...

    I'll have to check the caps with a volt meter while I have it open but to me it really seems like a drive issue.
     
  7. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    Just to be pedantic, you don't check the capacitors with the voltmeter, you check the 12V, 5V, and 3.3V outputs of the power supply (and on the original Series 3, the 7.5 Volt output as well).

    You may know this, others reading this now or later may not.

    Testing capacitors generally calls for more specialized test gear than just a voltmeter, especially the low Equivalent Series Resistance type used in the TiVo power supply and other switch-mode type power supplies.
     
  8. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    Oh yea...I get that...I don't want to have to rip all the caps out of the board to test them. Is there a output diagram of the wire harness of the series 3...and do you just sneak in the top to test the power supply while it's running or do you disconnect it from the board and do you have to jumper it like a PC to get it to power up? Or will it just power up while the harness is disconnected from the main board?
     
  9. HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    You want to test it with a load so connected to the main board. Just check the voltages through the top of the main board connector.

    Scott
     
  10. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    When checking positive voltage outputs of a power supply that's designed and built as "negative ground", which the TiVo power supplies are, you connect the voltmeter's negative (black) lead to ground, in this case the chassis is best, on the side opposite the power supply, either by an alligator clip right onto the metal, or if it's a probe type end, wedging it into one of the holes in the side rail.


    I like to do it with the front of the TiVo facing me so that puts the ground connection to my left, and I position myself so that the socket where the power supply harness plugs into the motherboard is right in front of me while I use my right hand to stick the positive (red) probe down into individual sections of the plug (that's called back-probing) to contact the metal tip on the end of the wire.

    I keep my left hand away from the TiVo or anything grounded while doing this.

    Anytime the TiVo power cord is plugged in you want to avoid any contact with the power supply itself.

    The color codes are as follows

    Yellow--+12 Volts

    Red--+5 Volts

    Orange--+3.3 Volts

    Gray--+7.5 Volts (this is only on the power supply of original Series 3, the TCD648250B)

    Black--0 Volts, 'cause all the black wires are the ground wires, and you're measuring relative to ground.

    I prefer when testing like this to have the power cord plugged into an outlet strip with a switch or switchable circuit breaker, or at least an outlet that's right there so I can yank the plug out immediately if necessary (hasn't been so far, at least on TiVo troubleshooting, but sometimes stuff happens) instead of having to crawl around on the floor trying to get to a wall socket.

    And if I need to pull the plug immediately, it's probably better not to have to grab the TiVo chassis with one hand and try to wiggle it out of the input socket with the other, so I prefer to deal with the non-TiVo end of the power cord.

    Remember the first rule:

    ALWAYS KNOW EXACTLY WHERE BOTH ENDS OF THE TIVO POWER CORD ARE AT ALL TIMES!!!


    On a good supply you'll probably get a reading of almost exactly 3.3 V on the orange and within 0.5 V on the yellow and red.
     
  11. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    Feb 11, 2005
    Northboro Ma
    Oh man...I randomly got the tivo to boot months ago and the power went out last night and I am stuck in the WPU screen of hell cycle again...uuugh...

    Big thing is still none of the kickstarter codes do anything...it just continues the WPU screen...
     
  12. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    If a TiVo displays the first screen, the one that says Welcome, and never moves on from displaying that screen, then for some reason* the motherboard and the hard drive are not communicating properly.

    Or else there is no hard drive.

    The first screen is on a chip on the motherboard, the second screen is on the hard drive.

    The change in the front panel lights that indicates when to input a KickStart code happens about 60 seconds after power is applied (or after the beginning of a soft reboot).

    I'm pretty sure it has to be in some sort of communication with the hard drive for that to happen.


    If you have a TiVo older than a Premiere then you can hook the drive to a PC, boot into Windows, open

    winmfs.exe


    and check the drive with

    mfsinfo

    to see if the TiVo software on the drive is scrambled, and you can use WinMFS's fix boot to force a switch to the alternate set of boot partitions.

    Option 1 sets it to partitions 2, 3, and 4, and Option 2 sets it to partitions 5, 6, and 7, regardless of how it was already set.



    *Could be drive problem, motherboard problem, drive data cable problem, drive power cable problem, or power supply problem.
     
  13. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    I didn't know/remember that winmfs has a fix. I will have to try that...and then if that doesn't work maybe I will wipe the drive and give it a fresh try...although that should do the same thing..
     
  14. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    Hey just a closure update...we lost power last night for a few hours (thunder storms) so when i got up this morning the Series 3 was stuck on the Welcome screen/reboot...

    So I hooked it up to a pc, ran winmfs and ran Fix bootpage option 1...
    And there she blows! Tivo booted like it was brand new...

    Time to get my cable cards rezapped now so I can get fox pay channels and hbo!
    I didn't want to do it before because they make you reboot to confirm and I knew it would never restart.

    Thanks for the help. I hope this can help others. I'm glad I have copies of winmfs on 3 different pc's and I've emailed it to myself :)
     
  15. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    scratch that...no closure...first reboot failed....

    can you tell me anything from the exported report on mfs?
    Code:
    Mfsinfo (Drive 2)
    
    Boot Page
    	Boot Page: root=/dev/hda4
    	Active Boot Partition: 3  Active Root Partition: 4
    	Backup Boot Partition: 6  Backup Root Partition: 7
    
    MFS Super Header
    	state=0 magic=abbafeed
    devlist=/dev/hda10 /dev/hda11 /dev/hda12 /dev/hda13 /dev/hda14 /dev/hda15
    zonemap_ptr=1121 total_secs=975443968
    
    Zone Maps
    Z0:	type=0
    	map_start=1121 map_size=1 backup_map_start=589822
    	next_map_start=263266 next_map_size=9 next_backup_map_start=589813
    	zone_first=1122 zone_last=263265 zone_size=262144 min(chunk)=262144
    	free=262144 checksum=70eed4d0 logstamp=44934697 num_bitmap=1
    Z1:	type=2
    	map_start=263266 map_size=9 backup_map_start=589813
    	next_map_start=263275 next_map_size=34 next_backup_map_start=589779
    	zone_first=589824 zone_last=217329663 zone_size=216739840 min(chunk)=20480
    	free=5816320 checksum=194f86fc logstamp=44934721 num_bitmap=15
    Z2:	type=1
    	map_start=263275 map_size=34 backup_map_start=589779
    	next_map_start=217336832 next_map_size=1 next_backup_map_start=217926655
    	zone_first=263309 zone_last=589772 zone_size=326464 min(chunk)=8
    	free=21712 checksum=c719a31d logstamp=44934763 num_bitmap=17
    Z3:	type=0
    	map_start=217336832 map_size=1 backup_map_start=217926655
    	next_map_start=217598977 next_map_size=130 next_backup_map_start=217926525
    	zone_first=217336833 zone_last=217598976 zone_size=262144 min(chunk)=262144
    	free=262144 checksum=2b3de9fe logstamp=44934697 num_bitmap=1
    Z4:	type=2
    	map_start=217598977 map_size=130 backup_map_start=217926525
    	next_map_start=217599107 next_map_size=34 next_backup_map_start=217926491
    	zone_first=217926656 zone_last=486544383 zone_size=268617728 min(chunk)=2048
    	free=8470528 checksum=89cbf44c logstamp=44934721 num_bitmap=19
    Z5:	type=1
    	map_start=217599107 map_size=34 backup_map_start=217926491
    	next_map_start=486544385 next_map_size=9 next_backup_map_start=486545398
    	zone_first=217599141 zone_last=217926484 zone_size=327344 min(chunk)=8
    	free=201176 checksum=40ae7502 logstamp=44934730 num_bitmap=17
    Z6:	type=2
    	map_start=486544385 map_size=9 backup_map_start=486545398
    	next_map_start=0 next_map_size=0 next_backup_map_start=3735928559
    	zone_first=486545408 zone_last=975443967 zone_size=488898560 min(chunk)=32768
    	free=16515072 checksum=a8964498 logstamp=44934763 num_bitmap=15
    
    Partition Maps
     #:                  type name                            length base      ( size  )
      1   Apple_partition_map Apple                               63@1         (  31.5K)
      2                 Image Bootstrap 1                       4096@485364800 (   2.0M)
      3                 Image Kernel 1                          4096@485368896 (   2.0M)
      4                  Ext2 Root 1                          262144@485372992 ( 128.0M)
      5                 Image Bootstrap 2                       4096@485635136 (   2.0M)
      6                 Image Kernel 2                          4096@485639232 (   2.0M)
      7                  Ext2 Root 2                          262144@485643328 ( 128.0M)
      8                  Swap Linux swap                      262144@485905472 ( 128.0M)
      9                  Ext2 /var                            524288@486167616 ( 256.0M)
     10                   MFS MFS application region          589824@486691904 ( 288.0M)
     11                   MFS MFS media region             216747008@268617792 ( 103.4G)
     12                   MFS MFS application region 2        589824@487281728 ( 288.0M)
     13                   MFS MFS media region 2           268617728@64        ( 128.1G)
     14                   MFS MFS App by Winmfs                 1024@487871552 ( 512.0K)
     15                   MFS MFS Media by Winmfs          488898560@487872576 ( 233.1G)
     16            Apple_Free Extra                             2031@976771136 (1015.5K)
    
    Total SA SD Hours: 519	Total DTV SD Hours: 453	  3 % Free
    Software: 11.0m-01-2-648	Tivo Model: TCD648250B
    
     
  16. HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    What drive do you have in this TiVo (manufacturer and model) and when was it purchased?

    Scott
     
  17. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    Western Digital 500 GB AV-GP SATA 3 Gb/s Intellipower 8 MB Cache Bulk/OEM AV Hard Drive- WD5000AVVS
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DNSZAK/
    Purchased 15-sep-15
    It passed full tests for everything...
     
  18. sender_name

    sender_name I remember XM 202!

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    Could I backup the boot sector from a good series 3 drive I have in one room and then restore it as the boot sector for this drive with winmfs? Or is there info in the boot sector that is drive specific/unique?
     
  19. HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    If it wasn't an AV drive, I might suspect Intellipark. It still wouldn't hurt to run wdidle3 and see if it's disabled.

    Scott
     

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