It appears DTV broke the up rev

Discussion in 'DirecTV TiVo Powered PVRs & Receivers' started by TyroneShoes, Jan 20, 2008.

  1. TyroneShoes

    TyroneShoes HD evangelist

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    Since the last software up rev I can't find a format on my HR20 that will unsqueeze 16:9 on the new HD channels when displaying on a 4:3 TV (I have it connected to both sets). It worked fine last week. A reboot provided no help. :mad:

    Software download up revs are typically a good thing, but a double-edged sword, and no one knows that better than the Tivo 6.x team. No one seems invulnerable to the demons that could be set loose. This time DTV screwed the pooch. Not a good sign. :thumbsdown:
     
  2. Mark Lopez

    Mark Lopez Just click ignore

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    I don't recall anyone else posting this issue at the other forum. Maybe a stupid question, but you do have 4:3 set selected under TV Ratio, right?
     
  3. phox_mulder

    phox_mulder I get paid 2watch TV

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    When I'm making DVD recordings, I have to change the settings to a 4:3 TV and change the output resolution (can't remember what resolution I choose though), but I do remember that setting it to a 4:3 TV makes it unsqueeze "more".


    phox
     
  4. joed32

    joed32 New Member

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    Are you talking about the black lines on both sides of the picture when you watch an HD channel on a 4:3 TV? I don't know of any way to get rid of them. Wish I could.
     
  5. shibby191

    shibby191 New Member

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    First I've heard of that issue. I'd suggest a post at DBSTalk. You'll get help pretty quickly from many people.
     
  6. phox_mulder

    phox_mulder I get paid 2watch TV

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    When set to 16:9 mode, the picture out of the S-Video is very thin and tall.
    Setting to a 4:3 TV fattens it up a bit, but still has the black bars on the side, nothing can be done about those.


    phox
     
  7. joed32

    joed32 New Member

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    Thanks!
     
  8. TyroneShoes

    TyroneShoes HD evangelist

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    Well, I think I've at least learned something. I found that my settings were changed, to be compatible with a 4:3 set. Of course I had it set for 16:9 and didn't change it, and having it defaulted to 4:3 is what caused the problem of not being able to "unsqueeze" the video (all better now).

    So this means 2 things:

    1) the 4:3 setting is less compatible with a 4:3 display than the 16:9 setting is. Under "4:3", I could not unsqueeze the 16:9 video on any HD channel. So that is very-poorly implemented, but can be fixed by simply setting the HR2x to be compatible with a 16:9 display, as ironic as that sounds.

    2) how did my HR20 get set to 4:3? It had to be from a SW up rev, as I live alone and didn't make that change.

    Bottom line, although DTV did not irretrievably break the SW and a new setting fixes things, they still screwed the pooch via the up rev defaulting and the inscrutably wacky implementation of 4:3.

    I am just a newbie with the +DVR platform, so maybe this is common knowledge, but it sure was confusing. Hopefully those of you who posted back with a similar inability to unsqueeze video on a 4:3 display can try the 16:9 setting to see if that also works for you. This issue is not a problem if you are using a 16:9 display, of course. Either setting works about the same there.

    One of my pet peeves with the HR2x platform is that yes, it will output to a 4:3 and a 16:9 display at the same time, but no, it will not have the correct aspect ratio on both at the same time, making that "feature" much less than useful. There is at least a 1-frame delay on the 4:3 output, which leads me to believe that the 4:3 output is generated downstream of the 16:9 output, rather than both being generated as aspects of a single circuit. This means that it is likely that DTV could fix it in the SW so that resolutions could be set independently for both 16:9 and 4:3 outputs, which would make this platform much more useful.

    If that is the case, I would like to make a formal request that they do indeed fix that.
     
  9. shibby191

    shibby191 New Member

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    You should post your observations on DBSTalk as DirecTV does read there for bug reports.

    I can honestly say I haven't seen anyone else post about this problem. Could be because there are so few 4:3 TVs out there. And from what I know of 4:3 TVs which setting works best on the receiver (4:3 or 16:9) is up to the features of the 4:3 TV. Some actually like the 16:9 setting better but most perform best with 4:3 setting (which makes sense). Every TV is different and 4:3 even more so it seems.
     
  10. TyroneShoes

    TyroneShoes HD evangelist

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    Bingo. Even fewer have both sitting side by side (well, next to yet 3 feet behind).

    Yeah, now that I've crawled over to the dark side, I guess DBSTalk makes sense, it's just not as interesting a forum for some reason (maybe because you and I are over here :D ). Chalk it up to inertia, or whatever the lack of the opposite of inertia is. But I'd be baffled if DTV didn't have trolls scouring this forum for them.

    Actually, a 4:3 set doesn't have options. It is trying to fit the only thing it understands, video formatted as 4:3, into a 4:3 raster. The formatting on the S-video output is always truly 4:3, but the way the DVR formats the source video inside that 4:3 output is where the problems lie.

    A 16:9 set is also always looking for something it can fit into a 16:9 raster, but it does have options in that it accepts multiple aspect ratios and resolutions and typically can also reformat them locally.

    I'm just annoyed that the +DVR is a one-trick pony, and can't present proper aspect ratio on both displays at the same time. Seems like it should be a no-brainer.
     
  11. rminsk

    rminsk TiVoted TiVo User

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    I have the same problem in that my living room is a 16x9 television and my bedroom has a 4x3 television. Every time I change viewing locations I have to change the aspect ratio on the HR20. I have made several requests on the other forum to at least make the option to change the aspect ratio a little less buried in the menus. I do not know why the s-video/rca NTSC outputs are not always 4x3.
     
  12. Budget_HT

    Budget_HT Heavy User (of TiVo)

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    Renton, WA
    FYI,

    There have been HD-ready 4x3 CRT TVs that do have options.

    I owned a Hitachi 36" HD-ready TV that had an option of compressing the raster vertically into a 16x9 display area (like letterboxed) with full vertical resolution. This option worked best when the source device was set for 16x9 display.

    There have been many Sony 4x3 CRT models that automatically detect the widescreen flag (in VBI) presented by DVD player outputs and some HD receiver outputs. With the flag present, the TV compressed the vertical raster into a full-resolution 16x9 letterboxed presentation.
     
  13. TyroneShoes

    TyroneShoes HD evangelist

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    A swing and a miss!:)

    Thanks for splitting that hair for us (it was inevitable, wasn't it:rolleyes:) but I'm really talking about TV's in general, not the one exception, discussion of which is beside the point and which doesn't really help this discussion anyway.
     
  14. Budget_HT

    Budget_HT Heavy User (of TiVo)

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    My post was apparently taken by you as a challenge or contradiction. I did not intend it that way. My only intent was to add information.
     
  15. TyroneShoes

    TyroneShoes HD evangelist

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    Strike two!

    Nigapleeze. Time out, hold the phone. It's painfully obvious there was absolutely no challenge or contradiction, and that your only "intent" was to add information, so I'd respectfully suggest you stop right now trying to elevate your noble status by painting me as a thin-skinned whiner. We both know better, so stop the madness.

    But "add information" to what benefit? None, in my opinion, other than to confuse the issue while you impressed us with how informed you are about what the rest of us already know.

    Not that that's uncommon, either on forums, TV news, or in everyday life. But just don't act surprised to be called on it, or expect anyone here to pull their punches.

    Since you apparently actually just didn't get it, the discussion you just couldn't help yourself from contributing to was about using both the SD and HD outputs of the +DVR to connect to two TVs at the same time, typically for most folks, HD to their new one plus SD to their old one. Everyone here knows there are a tiny fraction of 4:3 sets that get HD. But with all due respect, we were discussing the rule, not the exception to the rule, and not in any way discussing connecting HD outputs to a secondary 4:3 display.

    My posts are already considered way-too long (ya think? :)) without having to qualify every possible meaningless exception, so I edit a lot of that out, ironic as that might seem. Stuff not currently in the discussion only makes the discussion more complicated, so when someone later on seizes on a loophole opportunity to show the rest of us how smart he is about something relatively meaningless to the topic at hand, it's usually not received all that well, even if the original poster might have "forgotten" to qualify that exception. That's all.

    Just like any good jazz musician, who instinctively not only knows what notes to play in a certain setting, but also knows what notes NOT to play in that setting, it's important for posters to know when NOT to add "info" that really doesn't contribute to the discussion (and confuses the issue), just because they have that info or because they might have some pathological need to impress us with it. That's what blogs are for. Of course that's only one opinion, but probably a widely-held one, at least on the forums.

    I'm not saying that I'm any better than you or anyone else, BTW (well, I can think of a couple, I guess :rolleyes:). I'm a work in progress, and I freely admit it. I probably haven't been totally innocent in the past in that regard myself (adding "info" that doesn't really elevate the discussion), so brand me a hypocrite if you like, but I'm continually working hard to employ that sort of ethic, and maybe others should try it too.

    There's an understandable social human urge to want to join in just to be accepted and revered even if the info one might add is essentially meaningless, but hopefully there is a stronger urge to evolve beyond that. I never implied that it was all that easy to cultivate. I can take it, you're welcome to call me on it if you see any backsliding, and I'll either 'fess up or explain myself. Promise. :)

    Peace.
     
  16. jep8821

    jep8821 New Member

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    First, you should have never posted your issue here. Go to dbstalk,dbsforums, etc to post your issue. Second, calling the Directv dvr+ a one trick pony is not a factual statement. The HR10-250 can't even output to all ports at once and yet your calling the directv HR20(21) a one trick pony. Whatever!?!?!? Third, you then go off on a bizarre, arrogant rant on Budget_HT. By the way that only proves to everyone that you are "a thin-skinned whiner" who doesn't even go to the right forum to post their issue.

    Stike Three- Your out TyroneShoes!!!
     
  17. rminsk

    rminsk TiVoted TiVo User

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    This is because DirecTV wanted it that way. The chip it uses is capable of outputing multiple resolutions at the same time.
    This forum is also for discussion of the HR-2x. See the sticky at the top of this forum.
     
  18. jep8821

    jep8821 New Member

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    rminsk,

    The way I interpeted Mike Lang's post
    was that you can ask questions about the 2 models and comparisons. I don't think troubleshooting the HR20(1) here is what he intended. Anyhow, why not post this at dbstalk, and let them help. Earl and some of the other people that use to visit here no longer visit that frequently. However, I know there are some SD widescreen tv's out there as well. That could be the reasoning behind why directv may not fix the issue with it. They would have to code a several different options into the code. Each output HDMI, Component, svideo, and composite would need to be configured seperately with a choice of widescreen or 4x3. I don't know of any DVR's that can do that. So again why label the HR20 as a one trick pony when others can't do it either.
     
  19. rminsk

    rminsk TiVoted TiVo User

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    It does not matter if there are SD widescreen TV's out there. NTSC is a 4x3 format and only a 4x3 format. It is up to the TV to do any rescaling. DirecTV has actually added more complexity. The NTSC outputs do not need to be configured in any way except to output 4x3. The HR10 did it correctly and output 4x3 and only 4x3 to the NTSC outputs.
     
  20. jep8821

    jep8821 New Member

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    Aug 23, 2002
    Faucett, MO
    Rminsk,

    I don't get it and I am not an expert on this. That is why I would recommend this be discussed at dbstalk. I would think you would still need to select between 16x9 and 4x3 on the directv box. If you have a 16x9 widescreen sdtv through svideo, you would need to set the box to 16x9 so it will not letterbox an already 16x9 hd channel when it is output through svideo. While if you have a 4x3 sdtv using svideo, you would need to set the directv box to 4x3, so it will know to letterbox a 16x9 hd channel. Are you saying that Directv should output straight 4x3, thus letterboxing 16x9 channels and have the users of widescreen tv's choose the "widescreen" mode in there tv setup for svideo or composite. If that is the case, what if the tv doesn't offer the option to specify what is coming in on the svideo or composite video ports? Don't most CE boxes have you select widescreen or 4x3?
     

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