Is anything next after Premier ?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by paul_w_downing, Apr 26, 2011.

  1. paul_w_downing

    paul_w_downing Member

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    Feb 22, 2002
    Lake Orion MI

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    I understand your point.

    Yes, It was mostly a joke. Of course I want everything and to pay close to nothing.

    However, I also don't want to pay a lot and get a little or something that is 1/2 baked, or has many open issues with it. Besides, I look at it like cell phones and game consoles. Tivo get's their money on the back end. W/ Advertising, Monthly Subscriptions, I assume kickbacks from Hulu, Amazon, and more. So yes, I do expect TiVo to subsidize my hardware if they want to lock me in for long term contracts.

    If a $80 ROKU / WDLive Box can do 60% of what I'm asking I don't think the price moves up to $1000 because Tivo layers a nice front end on it and sticks a hard drive in it.

    If a new unit cost $300 + $300 lifetime, and it costs them $1000 to produce (which I doubt), then they should be able to get $100 + a year from advertising and other revenue for a break even in a few years.

    I don't assume that my brand new super cellphone that comes free with a 2 year contract really costs $0 to produce either. :)
     
  2. ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    yeah, The OP will need to consider moving on from his playon setup if he wants HD.


    What I have not seen mentioned is OTA that would also be a good source of HD and is free. Get a premiere (~ 500$) and stream netflix in HD (albeit not as good an interface as xbox and all) and get HD OTA on same box. Maybe by decision time Hulu+ will be out on TiVo and we will know how that streaming looks.
     
  3. atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    Rochester NY
    Well a Premiere isn't a high end HTPC so I am sure the hardware doesn't cost them that much.

    However TiVo's not making a profit so what they are charging isn't working out for them.

    TiVo is trying to do something that no one else is trying to do so there are no clear cut alternatives to look at. A custom built HTPC is the only thing that can offer all the functionality of a TiVo and those still have issues while costing substantially more.

    My personal belief is that while cable cards allowed TiVo to continue into the digital (& HD) cable world, they really are the problem. They add lots of costs and way to much complexity for most consumers.

    If the Premiere worked as easily with cable as it does for OTA (basically plug the cable in with no extra costs) I am fairly sure TiVo would be doing very well and perhaps they would have had enough resources to get the streaming part of the Premiere working at least as well as a Roku box.

    Thanks,
     
  4. paul_w_downing

    paul_w_downing Member

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    Feb 22, 2002
    Lake Orion MI
    You are right on the money. This was/is my original plan "A".

    I'm just second guessing myself to wait and see what is around the corner or if Premier stabalizes. Hulu on TiVo was announced, when, last year. Where is it?

    I'm penny wise and pound foolish.

    But.............

    If I drop $1000 on an HDTV, then I drop $600 on Tivo, $300 for decent OTA setup, then I sub to Hulu Premier for $120 / year, what have I gained over my current set up other than a better PQ ? $2000 seems like a lot of money to move from 480i to mostly 720p content and occasionally 1080p content.

    Does 1080p make "dancing with the stars" less crappy? (just kidding no offense).

    Maybe its a lifestyle question vs a TiVo technology Question.
     
  5. paul_w_downing

    paul_w_downing Member

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    Feb 22, 2002
    Lake Orion MI

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    To Cablecards - EXACTLY!

    I've called Comcast several times when I was getting close to buying Premier. Every single time I get a different answer. Free, Not Free, Service Call Required, Just come in and pickthem up. Every time something different. Plus I don't get On Demand with a cable card. On my S2, I could work around with a manual record because there was an AV input. But On Premier I am SOL.

    I want choice, Sat, Cab, OTA, Streaming, and I want it all easy. I know I'm asking for a lot. I really understand that. I know that my frankenstein setup is more than most people want to bite off. My out of pocket was maybe $300. But it works well enough for my wife and kids to use with very little tech support from me.
     
  6. ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    mostly lifestyle question I would agree.
    Not sure as to how OTA is where you live, but I have a TiVo HD with a 30$ OTA antenna hooked to it and get "dancing with the stars" in OTA HD. Wife likes the show but at least now the good looking women look better in HD to make it more bearable. (Bruno and the Host crack me up as well;))

    I subscribe to Netflix myself and likely would have no interest in paying for Hulu+ either, and definitely would not buy based on it is supposed to show up.

    Otherwise I have TWC extended basic in analog to record all the other stuff and watch it all on my SD TV. I fully understand not sinking big bucks to move to all HD. Nor am I up for the hassle of cable cards and getting clamped down on what I can copy form TiVo to TiVo to watch.

    also
    I rip DVDs to my hard drive and then use pyTivo (TiVo desktop would work also) to copy those mpegs to any TiVo in the house to watch. It is not DLNA and multiple sources but it serves up my "netflix DVD queue" quite nicely for all in my house with no tech sweat.

    just some things to think over, no one size fits all available for now, that is for sure.
     
  7. paul_w_downing

    paul_w_downing Member

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    Feb 22, 2002
    Lake Orion MI
    When I go HD I will have to string up an antenna on the roof. We are in a bad area to start with and our family room is in a sublevel (50% underground). I tried the "best" indoor antenna available last year, and I can only get 50% signal on 1 channel, and that is if I physically hold the antenna to the window. Like you I make due with SD over basic channels for the main networks. But I swear they (comcast) introduce static on purpose just to get people to subscribe to digital. It's been getting very bad lately, but since it is "free" I can't complain. I just keep repeating to myself "I am saving over $100 / month that is not going to the cable company". To be fair, technically they claim to have discontinued all analog service, so I'll take what I can get.
     
  8. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    +2 :up:

    It's been over a year and the HD UI is still only half finished and still really slow.

    Dan
     
  9. innocentfreak

    innocentfreak Well-Known Member

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    I would still put in more value to adding features over finishing the UI. I don't use the UI enough to notice it isn't finished. I would hate to see them hold back on features because a screen isn't in HD yet.

    Of course some of this would go hand in hand since adding features would require adding onscreen options to access.

    I think part of the problem is TiVo assuming they are focused on finishing the Premiere is that they seem to be pushing for one big update. It seems like they would be so much better off doing small and very frequent updates, something weekly to bi-weekly. At least then it would be obvious TiVo is trying to do something. As it is now, like everyone else I wonder what TiVo is doing. In the end if it does turn out to be a big patch hopefully it is big enough with enough meat to satisfy most.
     
  10. TheWGP

    TheWGP Hmmm...

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    Writing checks to lawyers
    Reading TCF out loud in the office and laughing
    Writing checks to lawyers
    Pleading with larger companies to license Tivo's interface
    Writing checks to lawyers
    Playing Xbox 360 - I hear they're really looking forward to Hulu Plus on it
    Writing checks to lawyers
    Throwing darts at a poster of Charlie Ergen
    Writing checks to lawyers
    Building forts in the office out of unsold/returned 19.99 plan Premieres
    Writing checks to lawyers
    Twiddling with website design, carefully leaving certain functions broken, especially those involving Season Passes
    Writing checks to lawyers
    Executives trying to figure out a way to sneak stock pump & dump scheme by SEC, in collaboration with marketing department
    Writing checks to lawyers
    In the basement... in an old storage room... by the light of a dimly flickering bulb... one single, solitary hamster powers the wheel that runs the system that's dedicated to fixing/updating Tivo's software!
    That hamster then puts some of his food in a corner... for the lawyers!

    Did I miss anything? :D
     
  11. nooneuknow

    nooneuknow Well-Known Dismembered Member (Lurk Mode On)

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    Whitewater, WI
    Um, I don't think that TiVoJerry would like being called a hamster. Then again, I'm sure he feels like one sometimes!

    You did miss the one thing TiVo -could- be doing, that scares me: Looking for an exit from the retail market.

    If they do that, they can sever the contract they have with the call center they use for Customer Support. Big savings, and they might actually post a profit... ...until they run out of patents to sue the competition into submission over, and they "ain't so special anymore"... ...or they actually try innovating, over litigating, step on another company's patents that nobody even knows exist, only to wind up getting sued into submission themselves.

    Hopefully, I will have received my money's worth out of all those lifetime subs I recently bought, before the end of TiVo. Yes, I am aware that while TiVo as we know it -could- cease to exist, the name still has enough marketability that somebody will buy the name to re-badge their products with. I wonder what the market value is for TiVo's patents, at the heart of their litigation machine, which -could- be sold separately from the TiVo name...

    I wish I had enough prowess to build my own "mind.tivo.com" server and make my TiVos connect to it. Then I'd worry less about the life expectancy / fate of TiVo.

    *Please note the use of phrases like "could", before you start ripping me a new one for allegedly predicting the future, which was not / is not my intent.
     
  12. TheWGP

    TheWGP Hmmm...

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    Certainly agree about TiVoJerry, nothing meant to diminish him or his coworkers at all! My post was meant to have a bit of fun with it. :D

    To be honest, that's my biggest fear too - that Tivo will just pull the plug on the retail boxes at some point. The only things that make me think that won't happen are:

    a) the certitude of a lawsuit if they did that (I know what the terms & conditions say, I'm a lawyer, though not a corporate one, and believe me they wouldn't stop a suit from happening) - not going to discuss this, but I'm sure Tivo has considered it.

    b) the, what is it, about 2.xx million subs they still have now, I think? That isn't a LOT, but it is a significant enough number that I think they'll think twice before discontinuing it in terms of negative PR and news coverage.

    c) the fact that Tivo benefits from having their own boxes to "demo" things on for the larger partners they're trying to woo. I believe they've even said as much - the standalone boxes are no longer a focus for them, but they are still useful. That's not an exact quote, and I can't remember precisely where I read that, but the gist of it is direct from Tivo. Really, this is probably what keeps the Tivo standalone boxes alive more than anything else, in my opinion.

    Anyway, maybe I'm just overthinking things, but I'm pretty confident Tivo will support the standalone boxes for quite awhile yet - I just paid for lifetime on my fourth box! :D
     
  13. slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    I agree that streaming online is where a lot of stuff is heading, but I don't agree that it is the way to go for all content. The biggest problem with streaming, to me, is that you can't skip commercials in some implementations (Hulu, network feeds, etc.) and I don't want to be force-fed that stuff.

    Also for live events (sports, mainly), you might not have time to watch it live and want to record/watch it later. Although they could solve this by keeping events around for later streaming, I don't think they do this much now.

    You're never going to see a full browser implementation on a Tivo, IMO, so there's always going to be lots of stuff that it can't get.
     
  14. paul_w_downing

    paul_w_downing Member

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    Lake Orion MI
    It seems they need to remake themselves from a TimeShifting box to a content / entertainment agragation and distribution box / service. Which is the same thing that Sony, Microsoft and others have been trying to do for years (with deeper pockets). I think the state of technology finally can make this a reality.

    I think it will come down to features, ease of use, and stability. I position that TimeShifting will become less and less important as On Demand from a varity of sources increases in content, quality, and reliability.

    I was watching a student the other day, he had on what I assume was ESPN3 and was watching a 4-up window on his laptop, watching 4 sports streams at the same time, with scrolling stats and additional content all live realtime.

    This is where it is going folks.

    If Tivo can get that experience off of the laptop (on top of what they already do with timshifting and content searching) and back onto the TV, then they win.

    If all they try to do as add basic no frills streaming to their timeshifting, then they die slowly as more content is put online. Most every TV / Blu Ray / Black Box, can do basic streaming. We expect more from our TiVo's than this.

    Let's think BIG !

    I would pay $1000 for a tricked out Tivo / 700 Watt, AV Receiver / Multi Media Streaming Monster Server, from TiVo no problem. I will pay 1/2 that when I upgrade my Yamaha AV receiver anyway. Imagine all that power / capability with a nice user friendly interface and remote with a slide out keyboard.

    My family does not use the receiver and surround sound because there are too many steps. Put the TV on Input 3. Turn on the Receiver. Put the Receiver on Tivo Input. Adjust the volume with the Receiver Remote, not the Tivo Remote, etc etc. To listen to my music library, I have to do more or less the same as above, but switch the input to my WDLive box, that can pull the content from my File Server.

    A combo unit would have a tremendous Wife Acceptance Factor. (No, I don't want a $200 remote to make this easier, I like my easy TiVo Remote).

    Oh, and I want a flying car too ! :)
     
  15. uw69

    uw69 Member

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    Nice idea! I would like to see Tivo leverage their best in class DVR and add like a ROKU/Boxee functionality. Something greater than 3 tuners would make a killer do all box.
     
  16. ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    the broadcast companies still have the bulk of the content and that is a hard fact to get around for smaller companies like Roku, Boxee or TiVo or even big ones like Microsoft.
    That said your statements above have been stated in various ways here for a few years now. This will not be a fast transition without disruption. The broadcast giants are paying out a lot of money to keep disruption minimal

    a niche there for sports nuts or news junkies, otherwise most are fine with one thing at a time on. Sports is also expensive to get online, Broadcast is still a value for getting sports, and is an oft cited reason for not cutting the cable cord.

    Not enough folks would do that for a small company like TiVo to have as a product line, especially since most folks who would do that can go down that road of HTPC components and stay more flexible

    TiVo inc.'s problem in a nutshell. You would think a nice big theater system is awesome, I would think a nice big theater system is awesome. Your family will not even deal with input selections and would hate a universal remote (which button do I push for TV?!)
    My wife can listen to a stereo with only one speaker working and not even notice :rolleyes:
     
  17. JimboG

    JimboG Member

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    You are in Lake Orion. You should be less than 30 miles due north of the Detroit-area antenna farm in Southfield. You might need a $200-300 rooftop antenna setup with rotor if you want to receive the Flint, Lansing, and Toledo markets, but Detroit should be quite feasible with a moderate sized antenna in the attic or perhaps an indoor antenna with clear line of sight to the south.

    Was this "best" indoor antenna some fancy powered antenna that looked cool and futuristic? Did you pay more than $13 bucks for the "best" antenna? If so, you probably bought an overpriced POS at the insistence of an uninformed salesclerk.

    Your first starting point for terrestrial digital TV reception should be the Radio Shack Budget TV Antenna. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077 . This is a simple UHF loop and rabbit ears. Get a barrel splicer and a length of decent quality RG-6 coaxial cable. You aren't likely to get acceptable reception in the basement; you probably want to have the antenna in a south-facing window far away from electronic devices that might cause interference.

    Higher is better than lower and outside is better than indoors, but you ought to be able to get acceptable reception at your distance from the broadcast towers. If you are in a heavily wooded part of Lake Orion you might need to use an outdoor antenna in the attic or on the roof. Fox is on real channel 7 and the CBC will convert to digital on Channel 9 later this year. You would need an outdoor antenna with high band VHF reception as well as good UHF reception. Something simple like the Winegard HD7694 ought to work. You might need a little bigger antenna to get the CBC out of Windsor reliably. You also could try the Antennacraft HBU22 or HBU33 from Rat Shack.

    I'd still bet you a dozen donuts that you could get acceptable performance from that Radio Shack indoor antenna for $13. If not, they have an excellent return policy.
     
  18. atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    This is another area where TiVo could excel.

    I have a harmony remote that I use. It works great one button everything on and set to the correct input/output. I know which buttons do what but if someone else had to use it they might not get past turning everything on.

    Now if TiVo upgraded their slide remote to also provide more universal features like the harmony they might have something.

    I honestly like the TiVo peanut remotes better than my harmony and did have them set to control the volume on my receiver so I really do think Tivo could build on this and end up with a better product than my harmony remote.

    Thanks,
     
  19. slowbiscuit

    slowbiscuit FUBAR

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    If On Demand includes unskippable commercials, no thanks. Otherwise I agree.
     
  20. paul_w_downing

    paul_w_downing Member

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    Feb 22, 2002
    Lake Orion MI
    Jimbo....

    I don't recall the exact brand / Model it was 2-3 years ago. It was about $40, but #1 ranked on most HDTV "review" websites at the time for the price range. Again, the problem is that I'm in the basement so I have to go external regardless. Terra ? Tetra ? something or other, and I seem to recall that they had 3 models that looked alike, but the one with /a in the model name outperformed most of the others by a long shot. The /a stood for amplified, but even without power it worked better. When the time comes I'll do the research again and get the best I want to afford. Anything low to the ground is blocked by tree's house, etc. So I'll to get up to the chimney where I used to have my Sat dishes installed.
     

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