I hate, hate, HATE the updated Netflix app!!!

Discussion in 'TiVo Premiere DVRs' started by escrge, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. apw2607

    apw2607 New Member

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    Tivo (premier) is able to play the 5800kbs streams.

    Tested with example 23.976

    When it does it switches to 1080p/24 ouput.

    The netflix UI on tivo does not show the superhd tag though

    FYI.
     
  2. apw2607

    apw2607 New Member

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    There is one other small bug I've found with netflix on tivo though. The first time you launch netflix and play a DD+ show, tivo will only play the show as DD. if you stop and restart the show it will then play correctly as DD+. From then on all shows that are in DD+ will play as DD+ until you restart the netflix client.

    Annoying. Hopefully then fix it at some point.
     
  3. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Well this is the first and only time that I've heard that opinion expressed in the year that the 2012 Panasonic BDPs have been on the market (after 3000 posts in its thread on AVS Forum). Sadly I can't judge for myself because I have an older 60 Hz Mitsubishi LCD panel which can't accept 24p; if I send it, my AVR converts it to 60p.

    I will give you that having to turn 24p on every time you run the app is a kluge, but only a tiny fraction of the kluge that 24p support in TiVo's Netflix player is. I'm willing to bet that many people have just marginally enough bandwidth to get up to the 1080p Netfllix encode after which it eventually falls back, something which might happen many times, depending upon the title. Every time it pops into 1080p and every time it pops out the great majority of monitors (if not all) will visually decompensate, rendering the Netflix player pretty much useless. This is due to the bizarre decision on TiVo's part to implement 1080p24 without the ability to scale arbitrary resolution/framerate combos to it. If you're not tech-savvy enough to figure it out or persistent and lucky enough to find the answer online, you're just plain SOL insofar as playing most HD Netflix titles on TiVo is concerned. My guess is that there are a pretty significant number of TiVo Premiere owners in that category.
     
  4. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Are you sure the content you were watching was 24P and not 30P? Watching 24P content from Netflix with the 24P setting on my Panasonic has no issues for me.
    I recently got the Panny 220 for 3D BD playback, but I like the streaming applications it has. Certainly better than my PS3 was(except Amazon). And faster than the TiVo Netflix interface.

    I'm curious how the BDT230 will be when it's released next month. I'm hoping it comes out before my sixty day exchange period is up at BestBuy so I can get the newest model.
     
  5. apw2607

    apw2607 New Member

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    Solid 100MB/s down for me. :D

    On more testing the tivo switches to 1080p/24 on the 4300 and 5800 streams.

    I agree with you that if you have a wonky Internet connection netflix on tivo is horrible. But if you have a good pipe, it works well.
     
  6. apw2607

    apw2607 New Member

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    I loathed viera connect, viera cast or smart viera or whatever they are calling it. It's slow, looks horrible and you've got to go to another online system to get to the apps, unless there is shortcut on the remote.
     
  7. aaronwt

    aaronwt UHD Addict

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    Yes there is a button on the remote for a shortcut. And a dedicated Netflix button. In my use so far it's been a much better experience than my PS3 and many of my other streaming boxes. It's been quick and looked nice too. And I'm also able to use 40Mhz bandwidth over WiFi. The only thing I can really complain about is Amazon streaming because it is limited to stereo audio.
     
  8. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    The question is how many people have "a good enough pipe"? People who subscribe to service that's nominally just barely enough to get 3850 Kbps 1080p, say a 5-8 Mbps tier, will probably see enough drift that they'll pop in and out of 1080p speed, particularly if there are others using that service in their household concurrently with their viewing Netflix. With Netflix players in most devices that's not a problem; PQ will shift a bit back and forth but not disruptively. The situation renders TiVo's Netflix player more or less unusable.

    Beyond having 24p in VOD players, which I don't use, I find my BDT220 to be hands down the best at rendering network VOD sources. I argued with someone about the quality of the VUDU HDX encode of Prometheus having excessive banding which I saw and he didn't and it turned out to be not the encode but what I was watching it on (my PS3, unto which I'd downloaded it to take any possible connection speed fluctuation out of the equation). When I tried various titles on various network VOD services on all of my streaming devices--Roku 2 XS, PS3, Xbox 360, BDT220, TiVo and this PC--the BDT220 consistently delivered the most digital artifact free and nearly judder-free output. It even handled bad cases well (Hugo on Netflix comes to mind--it's something produced at 24p which strangely got encoded at 30p by Netflix. The opening continuous panning shot through a busy train station is, to various degrees, a judder-fest on all my players except the BDT220. It's now my go-to player for VUDU, though I generally use my Roku 2 XS for speed and convenience for most everything else.
     
  9. morac

    morac Cat God TCF Club

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    The average U.S. broadband speed is 6.6 Mbps which is more than enough to sustain a 3850 Kbps 1080p stream. If the PQ is shifting back and forth with a 6 Mbps there is either a problem with the connection or the routing to the CDN server.

    For example, back when I had an 8 Mbps connection (I have 50 now), I used to have horrible picture quality problems streaming from Netflix and Amazon downloads to my TiVo took over 8 hours for a 30 minute TV show. It turned out there was a routing problem between Limelight networks CDN and Comcast. Once that was fixed everything worked great.

    Many streaming problems are actually caused by people switching their DNS to a 3rd party server to "improve performance". While this might result in faster DNS queries it can also result in DNS based location lookup calculating the wrong user location. This causes sub-optimal CDN servers to used which can cause poor speed as the closer the CDN server is, the better it is (usually). See http://shaun.net/2011/02/how-third-party-dns-resolvers-can-impact-performance/ and http://lifehacker.com/5721188/fix-itunes-and-other-slowdowns-by-ditching-third+party-dns-servers
     
  10. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Or excessive traffic somewhere along the route or sharing the pipe with others in your household doing other things.
     
  11. morac

    morac Cat God TCF Club

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    Excessive traffic along the route would fall under connection or routing issues as I've stated since the ideal routing should pick a CDN geographically close by. Shorter distances (i.e. less routing) should theoretically be less prone to congestion.

    Issues with other traffic in your household can be corrected by setting up QOS (or telling others not to download large files while you are watching Netflix). In any case that's a domestic issue. :)
     
  12. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    Your router wouldn't seem to determine what servers you get connected to. If you have Windows 8 on a PC, try the procedure that I outline in this post at AVS Forum. The first thing that happens with the Windows 8 Netflix app is that it opens a couple of connections to a server on Amazon's AWS CDN in Virginia (according to whatismyipaddress.com/ip-lookup). When I start playing something I get connected at first to a bunch of different servers, which eventually settles down to being one or two servers (usually--I've seen it persist in streaming from four or five). Most of the time these are servers in Limelight Networks' CDN, apparently in Tempe AZ (which'd be 350 miles from here in San Diego) and once a Limelight server in the San Francisco area, but in peak hours I've seen it hook me up with servers in the Level 3 and Akamai CDNs, in Wichita and as far away as Cambridge MA. It never seems to stream from the AWS servers, though it's always exchanging some amount of data with one, settling down to a trickle (100 bytes/sec or less), so I think that AWS servers direct the process.

    I just tried it playing a stream in the Netflix website player, with pretty much the same results, so you don't need to be running Windows 8 to do this experiment (given that the resource monitor in earlier versions of Windows can do the same tricks, which may not be true).

    Of course embedded players could use an entirely different process but it seems unlikely to me (it may be possible to trace that activity using your router, but it'd no doubt be considerably more difficult with most).
     
  13. morac

    morac Cat God TCF Club

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    This will differ for people in different areas of the country because of anycast. It's not based on your router, but your DNS. Your machine may open a connection to Amazon's AWS CDN in Virginia, but others will open elsewhere. I posted an example in a prior link, but the IP address returned depends on your DNS.

    Using Limelight CND as an example, using Comcast's 75.75.75.75 DNS to lookup amazon-128.fcod.llnwd.net returns 68.142.111.106 which is fcds204.iad.llnw.net (IAD server farm). Using L3's 4.2.2.1 DNS returns 68.142.90.171 or fcds204.lga.llnw.net (LGA server farm).

    I'll mention that Netflix uses redundant CDNs (Limelight and Akamai last I checked a couple years ago) to ensure stream quality. If one is bad, it will use the other. If both are bad, that's when problems occur. AWS is used for menu graphics and the like which is why when AWS fails you can't even get into Netflix, but AWS isn't used for actual streaming.
     
  14. mikeyts

    mikeyts Stream Warrior

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    I wonder why my Cox San Diego South DNS always gives me an AWS server in VA? (EDIT: I just checked; could be because I've been assigned to Cox DNS servers in Atlanta :rolleyes:). What are IAD and LGA? Designations of Limelight server farm locations? I generally get connected to stream servers in the lax.llnw.net subdomain which seems to be in Tempe.

    As I stated above, I generally get streams from Limelight servers in Tempe; during peak times I get connected usually Level 3 servers in Wichita and at least once to an Akamai server in Cambridge, MA (which could hardly be further away, but latency doesn't matter much in highly buffered streaming). I doubt that connection latency to the AWS server(s) used matters much either, but I'll try some of the open DNSes and see what changes.
     
  15. morac

    morac Cat God TCF Club

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    Limelight names its server farms after nearby airports which makes it easy to figure where they are. LAX is Los Angeles International. IAD is Washington Dulles International. LGA is Leguardia.

    Figuring out the Akamai location require doing trace routes and the like.

    I'm not sure AWS actually has a location based server (at least not for Netflix) since AWS isn't actually delivering the content so a little extra latency or lower bandwidth isn't terrible, unless the server fails. That's why the Christmas AWS Virginia server failure took out Netflix for most users.
     
  16. Feb 1, 2013 #176 of 227
    ness282

    ness282 New Member

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    LMAO exactly what do you think bluray is; magic? Unless you are a billionaire with experimental technology you're tv isn't capable of displaying beyond 1080p. 1080p is the best you can get, from bluray or netflix (btw some of the few places you can get it).
     
  17. Feb 1, 2013 #177 of 227
    moyekj

    moyekj Well-Known Member

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    But the bit rate for blu ray is significantly higher than Netflix streaming making it much better quality.
     
  18. Feb 1, 2013 #178 of 227
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    There is more too it than just 1080P how much it is compressed (see bit rate) really matters and nothing you stream over the Internet is any where near the quality of a blue ray disk. As an example most movies on blu-ray will be 20 to 30GB the same movie gets compressed down to 2-3GB when streamed by a service like Netflix.

    Now if you can actually see the difference between a well done stream and the blu-ray version of the same video depends on your TV size, where you sit, and your eyes. Many people don't have big enough TVs or sit close enough to see the difference as an example I think to see all the resolution a 50 inch 1080p TV can produce you need to be 5 feet away from it, so if you are sitting 10 feet away it would be hard to see the improved quality of blu-ray over streaming.
     
  19. Feb 1, 2013 #179 of 227
    morac

    morac Cat God TCF Club

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    For a 50" screen you should start to see the benefits of 1080p at about 10 feet, but won't see the full benefits until about 6 feet. See http://www.foxav.net/html/body_screen_size.html

    Bit rate doesn't come into play for that though as bit rate effects picture quality when there is motion on screen. A static scene in 1080p will look the same on Netflix as it does on a Blu-ray. Fast motion will break up (macro block) on lower bit rates because motion requires more data. That would be noticeable at distances greater than 10 feet for a 50" TV.

    Of note there's a new h.265 standard that supposedly handles compression better such that it has the same picture quality as h.264, at half the bit rate. Nothing supports h.265 yet though.
     
  20. Feb 2, 2013 #180 of 227
    atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    Ya I know sitting distance, bit rate, & and the actually abilities of the TV being used effect over all perceived quality in different ways.

    But my point is between where people sit and the abilities of the TV they are watching on, for many people it is hard to see the difference between a movie on blu-ray and the same movie via a high quality stream.

    Just for general info most new movies are actually filmed in 4K (4 times the definition as 1080p) and there is talk about going to 8K so even a blu-ray disk is compressed and a reduction in the quality compared to the movie in theaters. Also HD TVs can not currently reproduce as wide a color field as what you can see in a movie theater. Ok end of my plug for still going to movie theaters.
     

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