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Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by JACKASTOR, Oct 31, 2017.
What's the difference between live guide and grid guide?
Judging by the length of this thread, quite a bit. Hit Guide on the remote. Hit "A". Select a different Style.
-Live guide lets me easily scroll through 2 weeks of PBS programs to pick out one of a kind shows that only air once a year.
-Let's me scroll through 2 weeks of other channels, like Comedy Central, that have specials that again are only aired a few times a year.
-Let's me scroll through dozens of episodes on a channel to find new episodes. Despite my being able to pick out new, my 1P records a lot more than new. On a series with 10 years of episodes, I don't want them to clog up my HD and I don't want to manually delete them before they are recorded.
-To pick out news shows that have a special feature once a week but are proceeded by live sports that may run over by 30 minutes, an hour or more. I pad the show excessively so I can get the feature I want. No live sports before the show? Just a few minutes of padding.
-To make sure the start of a new season records. My season pass for Amazing Race was not scheduled to record last year, because it was Amazing Race 29. I manually selected Amazing Race 29 to record and then made a 1P out of it. I'm guessing it might be Amazing Race 30 this year, or Amazing Race or The Amazing Race...
I think the question wasn’t asking for an endorsement but what they are.
Live guide is the one that has current shows for multiple channels in the left and multiple shows for the active channel in the right going into the future.
Grid guide is a channel by time matrix showing current and some future for multiple channels at once. It is like the grids you see in newspapers.
Example of grid guide can be seen on many web sites. Is there an example of live guide somewhere? Even a picture posted on the forum would be good.
It's been posted a few times already in this thread:
Thanks for the descriptions and how to find it. I need to show this to my wife. Don't think either of us knew grid guide existed. We don't use live guide very much so this may not be a big deal for her. I'm holding off changing to Hydra because other Tivo features ARE a big deal to her and I don't want create problems.
Any word on how long we can keep the current OS before we are forced to use Hydra?
Here are three guide examples. All showing the same channel at the same time.
Gen3 Live Guide
Hydra Grid Guide
TiVo App Guide
The Live guide is shows the current program and explores the details of the selected channel.
Personally, I prefer the live guide. for this reason and because it is easier on the eyes.
The live guide is easily one of the Best Innovations TiVo Introduced, And definitely is easier on the eyes. Come On TiVo Lets bring the Live Guide Back!!!!
Until they say they are not going to support Series 4 or below (a long way off, I think), there should be a Gen3.
I do not understand this MSO thing. Didn't we pay DEARLY for our equipment and service, all to be at the mercy of the not so smart designers at Tivo, Inc?
I DO want a bigger video window and the final demise of the ridiculous audio dropout going in and out of Tivo Central (don't understand why they cannot fix this in Gen3), and of course Voice Command, but not this monstrosity Gen4 X1 look-a-like.
Just my opinion...
The MSOs were driving TiVo sales long before they were bought up by Rovi. The retail side was still dropping customers, DVR patents expiring in 2018, so TiVo had to step up with new software as there was no where to go on the hardware side. So they started down the road to the new UI in 2014 and that involved feedback from the MSOs and not really from the retail side.
Pulling Back the Curtain on the Latest Generation TiVo UI - TiVo Blog
Tivo’s Next Generation User Experience - Demo
Notice that Margret is mainly speaking about MSO operators.
Rovi (once known as Gemstar/TV Guide International was a UI/data business that originally started out embedding their guides in consumer products then seen their business grow mainly due to the need from MSOs for UI and guide data. Their legacy MSO guides, iGuide and PassPort Echo, are in use in more than half of the homes in the US, so it made sense for them to buy up TiVo as they needed a new UI to sell to their clients.
As for us retail owners, I think we are just providing them with very cheap beta testing in order to get this new guide up to speed as it is starting to roll out in a number of cable systems.
One division of my cable system is rolling it out very shortly in new Arris hardware and will replace the old Moxi UI in older Arris hardware so this is not just for UHD. So all the growth forward will come mainly from MSOs.
Press Release | TiVo
Some key phrases in this press release.
We already know from Ted's statements that the old UI will be locked down and no longer upgraded or patched and all efforts will be with the new UI going forward. I suspect that if retail sales don't pick up and a number of legacy users don't upgrade to Hydra then the retail side will be left go. So the choice is simple, either get on board with the new UI or stick with the old UI and face the possible abandonment of the retail division. Then you laggards can use your expensive devices as boat anchors or door stops.
Oh it is worth mentioning, the X1 platform is actually a Gemstar/Rovi design that was called Total Guide. This is what the lawsuit is all about with Comcast and TiVo/Rovi. The new grid guide in Hydra is very similar to the grid guide that they developed for Total Guide almost 8 years ago. They also came up with the expanded search feature at that time as they called it six degrees of search.
It will be the customers of MSOs that will be driving what features will be available in the new UI going forward as that is where future revenues will be coming from and not retail.
^ If the retail side is "left go" it is not due the recalcitrant retail TiVo customers; it is due to TiVo's inability to lure them onto the new platform. That’s not the way I see it.
Hydra needs some tweaks/options to ease transition to the new platform. It’s 90% there. Improve the guide and My Shows and I think it will be in good shape.
The FCC's failure to require a cable card replacement was the beginning of the end for retail TiVos fpr cable. It looks like Comcast will be the first QAM cable provider that currently supports cable card to transition to IPTV cable, once that occurs they will no longer have to support TiVos, with the best case scenario being that they provide an app. We may still be several years from that happening but if TiVo wants to stay in the DVR business they will need to be a supplier to MSOs because without some Government regulation changes there will come a point in time where the only retail DVRs TiVo will be able to sell will be for OTA use.
I get confused sometimes... Was Margaret the second coming of Jesus or was she a not-so-smart designer?
I had emailed her Once. When I was working with my contact in ERT (way in the past), one of the things that really ticked me off (and still does), is that when you are in a multiple recordings Folder (talking about Gen3), the position of a recording in Every folder would wind up at the top whenever you went into another recording in another folder. This is very inconvenient if you have many recordings (say the whole series of Murphy Brown and Night Court, which I have and you lose which episode you are on). I convinced her that there was a Global Pointer (only one) for the use for all folders. She took it to L2/L3 and in a few months a miracle occurred (in 20.4.6 on 02-03-2015 to be exact...I keep a log). They fixed it. Almost. They did not put a pointer in each folder in the database. Instead, I found out that they just decided to put this into Cache, SO when you reboot, ALL folders are set to position ONE again. Now anyone who has Netflix and watches a series, Knows that it Always keeps the position of what episode you are on for ALL series. So I emailed Margret to ask her why they went to the trouble to fix it and NOT make it permanent. She replied:
Hi Mr. S-------(took out my last name),
I understand that there are behaviors of our product that you are unhappy with. However, I do not expect any of the specific items you have mentioned to change in the near-term.
and that was that. I wonder if this has been fixed the correct way in Gen4? Also I guess they still don't think the year is important for recordings...Or have they (I doubt it on both)?
Sorry, but you did mention Margret, did you not? LOL.
Dude.. neither comment is appropriate,
She was very good to us for a long time and earned our respect, neither of your comments shows that.
This is not a failure of CableCards or the inability to find a replacement it is plainly the vast majority of the population is just not interested in what a really tiny, tiny minority of people want when it comes to TV. Most just want to watch their shows or their channels and that is it. They don't care what the UI looks like, or the guide, or even the picture quality, they just care that it works when they want it to. Also they are not going to pay hundreds, or worse, thousands of dollars to have devices like TiVo's. It is just easier and less complicated for TiVo to lease their UI to MSO's than deal with consumers.
As for Cable Cards, the biggest failure was the idea was implemented way before the vast majority of people even considered buying HDTVs. I bought my first HD set back in 2004 and I was the only person to use CableCard on my system for a number of years. To compound the issue the Cards were only available in expensive high end sets. It wasn't until 2009 that the vast majority of Americans decided to buy HDTV sets as most were confused by the need to have a digital TV because of the OTA analog shutdown. But by that time no CE TV manufacturer was offering CableCards in their TVs anymore. That just left the CableCard to boutique type of users that played around with WMC, Moxi, and TiVo. And both Moxi and WMC were abandoned a few years later. When Arris bought Moxi for 20 million in cash, there was around 6000 actual retail owners who owned multiple retail Moxi devices.
The last numbers TiVo reported for retail there was around 950,000 TiVo DEVICES, including Minis, that were in use. Since a large number of retail owners have more than one TiVo in their home the actual number of homes in the US for retail is quit low, around 200,000 at best. Compared to the MSO side of the business where there was over 6 million homes that had a TiVo powered device in it. If you figure that those MSO powered TiVos used client boxes the actual number of devices in use on the MSO side is somewhere around 20 million.
How many actual retail owners is there? The last retail number TiVo reported before Rovi bought them was around 950,000 devices, which includes minis. TiVo never reported the actual number of retail owners which I figure is around 200,000 since most owners have multiple devices in their homes. The MSOs that have TiVo powered devices was reported in actual users, which was a little over 6 million homes.
Also Rovi/TiVo doesn't care what way you or I see things as they have to contend with shareholders and the way they see things.
Right now TiVo only wants us to focus on bugs and not some features a very, very tiny number of users want. And on top of that it will be what the customers of the MSOs, that are now the biggest install base of TiVo UI users, and what they care about will take precedent to what retail owners care about.
While I tend to agree with your over all analysis of where we are now and have referred to the stand alone DVR market as a niche market for years. It didn't have to be this way.
Basically the pay TV providers got there way and the FCC gave up. The first FCC failure was when they exempted the Satellite providers which destroyed what should have been a primary driver of third party DVRs. Which was the ability to switch pay TV providers and to continue to use the same DVR by just switching the type of tuners (via USB or Network attached). The second and third FCC failures were when they again exempted IPTV cable providers and allowed QAM cable providers to not make VoD available to cable card users along with allowing SDV. Then the FCC allowed the Pay TV providers to drag out the whole process of coming up with a downloadable software replacement to cable cards that should have forced the Satellite companies and IPTV providers into allowing third part DVRs.
If the FCC had forced a software solution/replacement to cable cards and forced a full implementation (required all pay TV providers to support it regardless of delivery system) several years ago things could have been very different. But we will never know.
In the end we are where we are and without the MSO side of TiVo's business either TiVo would already be out of the stand alone DVR business or they would be getting out of it very soon.
While I do agree that consumers should have the option to buy their own equipment, the problem is how many average Americans will do so as previously these tend to be very expensive options. Also cable/satellite system are privately owned closed loop systems and don't use the public air waves and really don't receive much public monies for their operations. So the FCC really has limited control over these businesses.
I totally agree with you last sentence that without the MSOs and the victory with the patent lawsuits, TiVo would be long gone. Or would be on their way out with out the MSOs once the patent expires next year.