How long will TIVO be viable as a company

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by xberk, Jan 21, 2012.

  1. xberk

    xberk Member

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    TIVO stock went on the market in 1999. It nearly hit $60 at one time. Twelve years later, it's in the $10 range. Been as low as $3 range ... IT does not seem to have the power to turn a profit, even now. It clearly had the lead early on .. to the point where TIVO meant DVR. But does anyone know when TIVO last reported a profit in a quarter -- or if they every have?

    I'm wondering how much longer they can be viable? I love my TIVOs but I would not invest in this company ... would you?
     
  2. aadam101

    aadam101 Tell me a joke

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    Stock talk is not allowed.

    As far as Tivo, they have pretty much never made a profit. They have changed their business model several times and have yet to really find the right fit. I am surprised they are still in business.

    That being said, for the past couple of weeks, the mood around here among Tivo loyalists has changed. People generally like the new software (in comparison to prior updates) and Tivo has been more open in communicating with the Tivo loyalists on this forum and via other social networking sites.

    If you look back at the archives you will see people who posted your exact same thoughts for the past decade. Somehow they are still surviving. I hope they make it.
     
  3. uw69

    uw69 Member

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    I'm a little surprised TiVo has never been bought up by some company like Motorola or Verizon. Maybe someday.
     
  4. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    I am not as up on things as i used to be years ago but they typically have large cash reserves as compared to their losses. They can probably exist for quite some time just by spending the money they have 'in the bank'.

    That said- again not paying that much attention- I'm under the impression they are in a much better financial position then recent past. They won the dish lawsuit, settled another (was it ATT?), and have significant business with virgin media (seems to be the main provider of pay tv in the uk?), RCN, and Suddenlink, and in the future maybe something will come of their comast, charter, and other deals. So even though Directv appears to hope they die off it seems some tv providers have a use for TiVo.

    So maybe one day they can at least break even for a full year. (I think they've had break even or maybe even small profit quarters here and there....)
     
  5. GBL

    GBL covert opiniative

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    As a matter of fact, TiVo last reported a profit in the 1st Quarter of the 2012 fiscal year, ending 4/30/2011, thanks to $175 million in litigation proceeds and will most likely close fiscal year 2012 with a profit on 1/31/2012.
     
  6. aadam101

    aadam101 Tell me a joke

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    That's all well and good. I am happy for any company that can survive on patent royalties and lawsuits.

    For my own selfish reasons, I hope they put the money to good use and innovate.
     
  7. GBL

    GBL covert opiniative

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    You are preaching to the choir here.
     
  8. JosephB

    JosephB Member

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    Over the past quarter or two, Tivo has actually pulled itself back from the brink. No debt and $700 million of cash in the bank. Guaranteed income from DirecTV, AT&T, and Dish--for non-Tivo DVRs. Partnerships with something like 7 or 8 of the top cable companies in the US. A partnership in the UK that is going gangbusters and new partnerships in the last couple of months in Spain and New Zealand. A year ago, this might have been a valid question. Since the DISH lawsuit was resolved, Tivo has done nothing but the right things.
     
  9. xberk

    xberk Member

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    What I see is a company that baits with cheap hardware that is tied to a over-priced service contract that justifies a Lifetime service price. Selling lifetime service speeds up the cash flow? Why the need for cash? I think most of us agree, they have the superior product today --- but are they pessimistic about tomorrow? -- Where does TIVO go from here? And where does their pricing go from here? Up? Can they use some of that cash to buy another company that adds value to their offering?

    As I said, I love TIVO. I want to see them survive. I just bought 2 Lifetime contracts for $900. I did it to reduce that over-priced monthly cost. So --this $900 is for service but it depends on the equipment surviving. This does not warm my heart. Something is flawed in that picture. The longer the equipment lasts, the more it benefits ME - and the less it benefits TIVO. -- Or am I missing something? How does TIVO benefit long term from Lifetime deals as they are now structured? I see their benefit in the short term. Cash up front. Hmmmm -- to quote Mark Twain -- a burglar couldn't have designed it better.
     
  10. JosephB

    JosephB Member

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    You obviously have an agenda. Maybe you got bitten by bad hardware? No company is perfect, and I won't claim Tivo is perfect. If you don't feel that lifetime service is worth it, don't buy it. I have two Tivos and pay monthly. For the cost of the hardware, and the features I get (cable box with Netflix? Yes please) it's worth it. My cable bill plus my Tivo fees are less than I paid to DISH. Are my DVR fees higher? Maybe, but I'm taking it all in as a whole package.

    I do think that Tivo's focus will be on cable company deals and less on retail, but I don't think retail customers will go away. It's a great way for them to test out features that cable companies may not always approve of and retail customers tend to be a fiercely loyal bunch.
     
  11. Chris Gerhard

    Chris Gerhard Well-Known Member

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    TiVo will be around for a few years but beyond that depends on whether or not the predicted internet TV revolution takes place. As long as we have a majority of the market obtaining TV service from cable, satellite and OTA, there will be a market that will sustain TiVo. It might not be a big market or a very profitable market but TiVo guaranteed its existence for that market by proving its patents in the courts.

    For me, TiVo is the best DVR for OTA, there isn't a close second.
     
  12. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    tivo doesn't "book" the lifetime all at once- they spread it out on their books for years if i remember correctly. also they ditched lifetime service years ago- we all bitched (and presumably their sales were heart enough) that they had no choice but to bring it back.

    If you spent some time researching and read the transcripts of their conference calls you will see that they themselves have said that they dont likfe lifetime for the reasons you have mentioned but would prefer monthly income. But again when they tried it, that didn't work.
     
  13. mmf01

    mmf01 Member

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    Orange...
    Considering TiVo just won two patent lawsuits worth over $700MM combined, I think they will be around for a while.

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57351698-93/at-t-to-pay-tivo-$215m-to-settle-patent-lawsuit/

    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/tivos...ent-with-echostar-dish-disappoints-some/48102

    Like others here, I want them to survive. They've done wonders with the latest SW update and really have the superior product. Otherwise, we'll be at the mercy of crappy CableCo DVR's.
     
  14. Speed Daemon

    Speed Daemon New Member

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    Only in America is it possible for a corporation to be so arrogant as to make their main business to litigate over questionable IP ownership. The main problem with this model is that in order to win lawsuits, a lot of cash must be risked up-front in hopes of proving that the company has suffered from the defendant's actions. Even when they win, they still lose. Now factor in the number of enemies made and potential business partners lost and...well, a burglar couldn't have designed it better.

    Someone mentioned that TiVo is sitting on a corporate-sized mattress full of cash, as if that was a Good Thing. The last time that "cash" and "mattress" were used together in many sentences was during the Great Depression of the 1930s. People (and companies are people, my friend) tend to hoard money during bad economic times and times of great uncertainty. Times like now.

    Entertainment businesses like TiVo are in special jeopardy in times like these. If there's another Great Depression (which is becoming more likely), companies like TiVo that don't make anything of use for basic survival needs (food, weapons, fuel etc.) will cease to exist. The good news is that we won't have much time to miss TiVo as our own lives start to resemble a "Mad Max" film.

    Even if the economy is saved from plummeting into oblivion, the damage already done will make it increasingly hard for resellers like TiVo to survive. It's a really bad time to be stuck between the truly powerful content owners and a consumer base that is shedding unnecessary financial outlays.
     
  15. shwru980r

    shwru980r Well-Known Member

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    The FCC allowed the Satellite companies to shut out Tivo completely until very recently and the Cable companies to make access difficult by requiring a truck roll to use a Tivo with cable TV. Tivo lost over half it's subscription base over the past several years. It's amazing that the company is still in business.
     
  16. Soapm

    Soapm Active Member

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    They will be in service until smart tv's and VOD squeezes them out of the market.

    How long that will be depends on when their current monthly users abandon them for the new technology.
     
  17. Soapm

    Soapm Active Member

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    That's because the cable companies made you a sweet offer for their DVR service. The pitch comes with the truck roll...

    I was asked if it was too late to return my Tivo and was offered 12 months free DVR... I add some of my recordings to my library so I said no thanks...
     
  18. wp746911

    wp746911 New Member

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    So what your saying is that this is the only country where a company sues for patent infringement? I don't know how 'questionable' their IP is, but tivo certainly was a major innovator who has been forced out of markets with competitors who, according to the court systems, used illegal business tactics/IP infringment to do so. So it is wrong for tivo to seek recourse?

    The certainly have to focus on more than IP defense to stay a valid company, but there is nothing wrong with fighting for what is yours.
     
  19. xberk

    xberk Member

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    Nop. I have no agenda or grudge. I've had DirecTV TIVOs since 2001. Still have 5 series 1 and 2's .. Hardware was always decent .. loved the fact you could own your own .. replace drives with larger ones etc...We wanted to upgrade to HiDef .. so I recently left DirecTV for Cable just so we could continue to use TIVO... bought 2 Premieres and really love them .. I have nothing against TIVO as a product .. -- just frustrated that they haven't made a solid success of what is clearly the better product .. I wouldn't say I'm blindly loyal to TIVO, I'd say it's that TIVO is better and I like better. I realize I made my choice .. paid my money .. I'm all in ..

    I have a Cable company DVR in my living room now. It reminds me every time I use it why I love my TIVO. How does TMC get away with it? Shouldn't better win? .. Why can't TIVO make a profit? What's wrong with the system that lets inferior DVR's from Cable/DirecTV/U-Verse/FIOS etc win? Is it government regulation and interference? Or does TIVO lack the right plan -- the right people? Somethings wrong. They have the right product. How do you have the better product for 12 years and never find a way to make it pay? I can't believe the big bad telecom corporations are totally to blame. Are all of them set on killing TIVO so they can make more money? Is TIVO at their mercy?
     
  20. bradleys

    bradleys It'll be fine....

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    I think TiVo is in a better position then it has been in for years... It has expended considerable effort developing MSO contracts and has successfully defended it's patents. I have actually increased my investments in TiVo.

    I have loved tivo over the last decade and I hope they have a vision for the next ten with mobile steaming, extenders and IP content.

    The cable providers are going to fight the changes as long as they can - and DVR's simply would not exist without a third party company like TiVo.
     

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