Have we lost our value to TiVo?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by Ereth, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. Jul 27, 2006 #61 of 112
    rorion

    rorion New Member

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    No I think he's talking about yellow star infomercial recording which is not controlled by that setting. You don't get a choice on that one except for recording all your shows or at least not watching stuff live around whatever random time TiVo inc. happens to pick this week.
     
  2. Jul 27, 2006 #62 of 112
    TiVo Troll

    TiVo Troll Registered Troll

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    OIC. Bummer!!!

    (Naughty TiVo. Out! Out! Out!)
     
  3. Jul 27, 2006 #63 of 112
    davezatz

    davezatz Funkadelic

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    We may seen a few early morning incidents over the last few months... I get in the shower around 6ish EST and I think that's about when my fiance has reporting seeing things that sound like commercial recordings to me.
     
  4. Jul 27, 2006 #64 of 112
    murgatroyd

    murgatroyd Don't stop believin'

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    Which was already covered by your first point. So why two entries on your list? Yes, there is more likelihood that the buffer will contain an entire program to record, but you already covered that point while discussing the longer length of the recording buffer.

    Jan
     
  5. Jul 27, 2006 #65 of 112
    Jonathan_S

    Jonathan_S Well-Known Member

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    Well, it is a little hard to give a simple comparison, because all cable DVRs aren't equal.

    Some of them are still little more than digital VCRs, you can program them to record every CBS every Tuesday at 8, but can't tell them to record NCIS whenever it is on.

    Some cable DVRs support name based recording, like the TiVo's Season Pass feature, where you can tell them to record a show, like NCIS, by name. They will search through the guide data and record it whenever it is on, or handle things like 90 minute special episodes.

    I believe that some cable boxes are smart enough to support recording of new episodes only, just like TiVo's First Run Only setting. That's convenient if you've been watching a show from the beginning and don't want to see repeated episodes or summer reruns. Any new episodes get recorded, any old ones don't.

    From what I've heard, I don't think any cable boxes supports Wishlists or Suggestions. Some people really like those feature, others never use them; so how much of an advantage they are for you I couldn't say.
    I personally like wishlists, and have 30 or 40 set up to catch programs if they every do air. A wishlist is just a keyword or category search that you set up and wait for the TiVo to find a matching program.

    So I have some movie I'd kind of like to see, so I set up Title wishlists for them. Same for some old series, if they ever get syndicated my TiVo will grab them.
    I also have an auto-recording wishlist set for first run premiers, and another set for first run with the keyword pilot. Between them they grab basically every new series first episode so I can take a quick look and see if it is anything I might like.
     
  6. Jul 27, 2006 #66 of 112
    Y-ASK

    Y-ASK Why Ask?

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    Ding! Ding! Ding! You are correct! Suggestions are turned off and it happens about 6-8 times a month. Generally it's around 5:30 can be earlier or later. I've seen it happen as late as 06:00 AM. And since my morning routine is pretty consistent I probably see more than most. Even when it happens after years of dealing with it, it still pisses me off big time. And it's all due to advertisements provided by Tivo. And since I have three kids who take turns selecting what they are going to watch (which always involves a channel change) setting the channel to one station to record every morning is not an option. The option I would prefer is for Tivo to leave my box alone, enough with the ads already.

    Y-ASK
     
  7. Jul 27, 2006 #67 of 112
    jmoak

    jmoak Beware of Conky!

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    Jeeze, I gotta agree with you there. That's a pita. Doing it at 2 or 3 am doesn't bother me too much, but some of us have early mornings regularlly, but it hasn't caught me at that time yet.

    In an effort just to keep that from happening when your kid is watching that early, set a lowest quality 2 hour block recording for 5-7am on the cartoon channel. It'll already be on that channel when you turn on the tv and it'll stay on the channel that way. You'll just have to delete it later. It may just be a workaround, but it'll keep the kids happy. ....AND force it to do it your way again.;)

    Not to mention giving you an uninterrupted shower!
    :)
     
  8. Jul 27, 2006 #68 of 112
    Ereth

    Ereth Unemployed Bum

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    I've not encountered that, but then I don't get up at 5:30 am, and I can see why it would bother you.

    Question though, once the kid decides what he wants to watch, why not just hit the "Record" button on your remote before you head for the shower? Tivo won't change channels then. Admittedly it's a work around and not ideal, but it sounds like it would help.

    (As for the animosity comment, I didn't mean you specifically, I meant the overall tone of the forum lately. There's a lot more "TiVo screwed me" posts and threads where people try to respond to those are met with "cheerleader" comments. I haven't seen any animosity in this thread at all, I was just thinking out loud about the overall tone).
     
  9. Jul 27, 2006 #69 of 112
    Ereth

    Ereth Unemployed Bum

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    I often think it would be useful to do something like DrStranges famous TiVo vs ReplayTV document, with a special effort to be fair. But the difficulty here is that there are now so many different DVRs out there that nobody has them all to do a fair comparison.

    If I tell you about the complaints my friend has about his Comcast DVR, that's second hand and we don't know if they are valid or exaggerated, for instance.

    I wonder if we could do some sort of group-effort and come up with a pretty reasonable guide to the various products out there, and if we did, if it would be useful or if it would be too unwieldy and too long (especially if *I* were to write it!) for people to read.
     
  10. Jul 27, 2006 #70 of 112
    murgatroyd

    murgatroyd Don't stop believin'

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    On the first point: the example of my two S1s was intended to address the 'no software updates' part of your argument. Note that most software companies don't update you for free, forever. When you get new software, you usually do pay something for the upgrade -- and in many cases, you are forced to take the upgrade or you eventually don't get service. TiVo Inc. isn't treating us with an upgrade policy like Intuit's, for instance, of "upgrade or die". Sure, I haven't got Home Media stuff, but I haven't had to pay for it to subsidize everyone else who does. My service fee hasn't gone up over the life of my boxes, it has gone down.

    Now about the new users. Yes, I agree that having to commit for a year is a drag, but they still do give you the 30 days to make up your mind.

    And see, here's the thing. I may be old-fashioned, but if your friend went over his 30 days trial, that's his problem, not yours. Aren't you guys both grown people? Can't you be responsible for yourselves?

    I am really puzzled by the fact that people these days are terrified by the fact that OMG they might not like something. It's like someone handed out wishes when I wasn't looking, and a fairy godmother told all you guys that you wouldn't ever be disappointed in anything ever again, not ever ever ever. So when something doesn't work out the way you wanted -- not that it's broken or defective, just that it doesn't work the way you wanted -- you just can't take it.

    Does every single part of the TiVo interface work the way I would have designed it, had I been on the design team? No, it does not. Is Guide Data always perfect? No, it is not. Did the TiVo designers come up with some cool features that I would never have thought of? Yes, they did.

    Is having two TiVos better than looking shows up on online listing services, keeping a boatload of entries in an Excel spreadsheet or database, and doing what my TiVos do now BY HAND? Absolutely.

    I think the real problem is what I call the "principle of not enough". Those of us who, like Ereth and me, are long-time timeshifters with VCRs instantly see the value of TiVos, but there aren't enough of us. So TiVo has to campaign for new users among people who are new to timeshifting, and they attribute stuff that is inherently sucky about trying to timeshift to the TiVo being sucky, which is short-sighted and unfair.

    People expect a TiVo to be magic, and that it will magically get all the shows they want without intervention. Well, I have news for them, there are LOTS of situation where you don't get the shows you want and if you were still depending on VCRs, you wouldn't have got them then either. Yet people blame TiVo for the show being missed. I just don't get that.

    Here's what I might expect of you, a long-time TiVo user, to do for me if you were my friend encouraging me to get TiVo.

    1) a good buddy might help a friend with setup
    2) a good buddy could ask me for a list of my favorite shows and set up some Season Passes and wishlists, and show me how everything works and do some explaining about unexpected conditions
    3) a good buddy might encourage their friend to sign up for TCF and subscribe to the Season Pass Alerts and show him the 'advice for new users' threads, etc.
    4) a good buddy would be available if their friend has a question or needed tweaking or troubleshooting
    5) a good buddy would warn his friend about recording scenarios that will bite you in the ass if you aren't aware of them (like trying to record something that follows a live sporting event, e.g. ESPN decides on the fly to stay with a game that is running over and moves the upcoming game to ESPN2 with no warning).

    But would I expect the thing to be perfect and blame my buddy if it didn't work exactly as I expected? Would I blame my buddy because sometimes timeshifting just sucks? No, I would not.

    When I give recommendations, I want people to know both the good stuff and bad. I have worked in sales, and there have been plenty of times where I have talked customers OUT of buying something when I suspected they wouldn't like it, because I want them to come back and get more stuff from me later on.

    I don't blindly support TiVo. I do recognize that TiVo Inc has to make decisions that I don't like, like discontinuing lifetime, because they have to stay in business.

    The new pricing scenarios suck. I'm with you there.

    But I still think TiVo is a tremendous value.

    Jan
     
  11. Jul 27, 2006 #71 of 112
    murgatroyd

    murgatroyd Don't stop believin'

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    If I may expand on what Jonathan_S has said:

    Wishlists rock. The better you get at making a good wishlist, the more awesome they are.

    What VCR or other DVR can record stuff that you really, really want to see, when you didn't even know the show existed in the first place?

    My husband (and I) love the singer Kate Bush. She never makes appearances on television, but just for fun, when I first got my TiVo, I set up an auto-recording keyword wishlist for "Kate Bush". Ha ha, this will never get any hits, I said.

    Then my TiVo recorded for us the episode of Saturday Night Live with Kate Bush as the musical guest. I did not know she had been on the show. And on doing a little research, I discovered that if you buy the commercial video of that program, her appearances aren't on the tape because of some rights problem. So the ONLY way to see these performances are to stumble upon the repeat of Saturday Night Live somehow.

    Imagine how much work it would be to go through the online listings for Comedy Central week after week after week after week.

    Are they showing the SNL with Kate this week? Nope.
    Are they showing the SNL with Kate this week? Nope.
    Are they showing the SNL with Kate this week? Nope.
    Are they showing the SNL with Kate this week? Nope.
    Are they showing the SNL with Kate this week? Nope.
    Are they showing the SNL with Kate this week? Nope.
    Are they showing the SNL with Kate this week? Nope.
    Are they showing the SNL with Kate this week? Nope.

    You get the idea.

    And if you don't know that she was ever on the show, you can't even do that. You won't KNOW to look for it.

    This is one of many reasons why they will have to pry my TiVo remotes out of my cold dead hands.

    Jan
     
  12. Jul 27, 2006 #72 of 112
    rorion

    rorion New Member

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    Well now that TiVo no longer has lifetime, I think it's clear that they charge for updates too - even after your box stops getting them. As for "upgrade or die", I've been using Quicken for many years and never run into that. On the other hand, TiVo's policy is: "We'll upgrade you when we want to upgrade you and we won't when we won't". There is no "or die" there's just: "you have no choice, we're in complete control of this" unless you're willing to hack or disconnect from the service. I don't see where this is significantly better than "upgrade or die". It seems like sort of the same overall policy only you're more in control of your PC so they need a carrot and stick whereas TiVo can just do it.
     
  13. Jul 27, 2006 #73 of 112
    murgatroyd

    murgatroyd Don't stop believin'

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    How do you figure that without lifetime, "it's clear that they charge for updates too - even after your box stops getting them".

    As I understand the new pricing scenarios, if you can find a vendor who will sell you the hardware so that you own the box outright, you still pay $12.95 a month. Otherwise the cost of the box is rolled into the price (and yeah, thanks SO much to all of the whining weenies who cried about "I have to buy the box and THEN I have to pay for service on top of it -- waaaaah!" :rolleyes: See what your whining got us?).

    So let's say I bought a S1 from one of you disgruntled "I'm through with TiVo" users for my brother and sent it to him for Christmas. After my gift subscription to him ran out, would he pay $12.95/mo for it, or not?

    I appreciate your comments about being force-fed upgrades by TiVo, but at least your TiVos still work. On the other hand, I am about to lose two computers because they are too slow to run the most recent operating system and what they do run is no longer supported. TiVo doesn't force me to commit piracy in order to keep my TiVo running.

    Jan
     
  14. Jul 27, 2006 #74 of 112
    murgatroyd

    murgatroyd Don't stop believin'

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    You can see the possible timeslots in the Guide Data, if you want to see what time the show might be on.

    I like Ereth's work-around of hitting the record button once the show has been selected. Then the TiVo will know it is busy and it won't do the other recording.

    Jan
     
  15. Jul 27, 2006 #75 of 112
    Ereth

    Ereth Unemployed Bum

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    Question: if you've been here since 1999, and even in the Beta Forums (ACK! NDA!), why the new ID with only 8 posts?

    Some of us other old timers would likely know you by another name, I would assume? Care to share what it was?
     
  16. Jul 27, 2006 #76 of 112
    freediverdude

    freediverdude New Member

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    Wow, it does sound like that Wishlist feature is something nobody else has. I would really like that one. What is this thing about it recording an informercial once a week automatically though. That seems odd.

    So I guess it would really depend on my particular cable company, as to whether I got even a decent DVR or just a VCR-like device. We've always hated our cable company, which used to be called Time Warner and they're now calling themselves Brighthouse.

    Do you guys find, though, that the Tivo records too many programs to watch? I can just envision this thing, once I get it set up with some recording requests, recording and recording and recording, picking up way more hours of stuff than I ever could watch, hehe.
     
  17. Jul 27, 2006 #77 of 112
    rorion

    rorion New Member

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    I wasn't refering to any of the higher cost options. If it really costs TiVo $12.95 a month to provide TV guide data when they don't even have to pay for paper, then TiVo deserves to be out of business. Surely much of this is the cost of developing software. In fact it even says pretty much that in my service agreement. (With the usual CYA disclaimer that no specific future features are actually promised. However they do say that whatever features and change they may or may not provide are part of the service. Of course that's how they slip those yellow stars in too – all part of the future service improvements you agreed to.)

    Putting it another way, if I had been paying monthly for 7 years, I would have paid more for TiVo service than for any other single software program I've run over that time including update fees. I'm not going to try to exactly compare which software equates to the TiVo app in complexity but I think that >$1000 is a fair amount of money for using a TV recording app for 7 years. (Lifetime for $200 was pretty reasonable though so I'm not complaining.)

    They must be pretty old. I have 1970s, 1980s and 1990s computers here that still run fine. "supported"??? Heck many of the companies no longer even exist but they still run fine and do more than they did the day I bought them. TiVos have only been around since 1999 so they I don't see how we can compare them. Let's see how our Series 1s are doing in 30 years. I have no idea what the answer will be to that.
     
  18. Jul 27, 2006 #78 of 112
    rorion

    rorion New Member

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    Because I haven't posted since about 2001 and either my ID is gone or I can't remember it. Yeah, I'm hoping they don't care too much about the NDA for a release 6 years ago, but I won't say more than that. (And I think everyone knows that a beta forum exists.) Besides, this wasn't the idea of anyone at TiVo Inc. Some of us just got annoyed at the negativism over the rollout procedure. (Which was public.)
     
  19. Jul 27, 2006 #79 of 112
    Ereth

    Ereth Unemployed Bum

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    Wishlists rock. They are especially good for things like "Wierd Al does a special on MTV whenever he releases a new album. Get that" or "I like the P-3C Orion, get me any shows that mention that" or even "I want to see that one episode of Seinfeld with Teri Hatcher, record that when it's on, but no others".

    Nobody else has that as far as I know.

    As for more than you can watch? Sure. But you discover, after you've had one a while, that some shows are less "important" than others. You'll have a handful that you want to watch close-to-live, or at least same day (like, say, "Lost"), a bunch more where you want to watch them reasonably soon, and then more that you discover you don't mind not watching for weeks. Often which are which will surprise you. About 4 months after you get your box you'll turn it on and discover you've voraciously watched all of whatever your favorite show really is, and there's a whole bunch of some other show that you thought you really liked, but whenever you turned on your Tivo you picked something else to watch. Heck, I used to be a rabid Stargate fan and then last season I missed half the season without realizing it (but they were all dutifully waiting on me when I got to them). That's the true power of TiVo, the part you can't get from the commercial. How totally freeing it is, how you can like a show but not be tied to it, and maybe not even watch any of it's episodes until the summer when NOTHING is on, and you have a whole season of "24" just sitting there ready to watch.

    It's liberating.
     
  20. Jul 27, 2006 #80 of 112
    Ereth

    Ereth Unemployed Bum

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    Actually, the "ACK! NDA!" comment was a joke. It's a bit of a running gag around here that you aren't supposed to mention you were in the Beta for ANY release, not even 1.3, which I can neither confirm nor deny that I might or might not have been involved in Beta Testing, if such a thing were to have happened. ;)
     

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