Genre confusion :(

Discussion in 'TiVo Series 1 - UK' started by PhilG, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. Oct 4, 2011 #1 of 16
    PhilG

    PhilG New Member

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    This may be an alt-epg issue, but I wanted to ask here first

    I'm using tivoweb (and alt-epg, of course)

    If I search for a program titled "Middle" Tivo finds "Middle" (as I expect) and I can click to the episodes, all of which say

    BUT If I refine my search and look for a title of "middle" and a genre of "comedy" Tivo does NOT find the shows!

    But the genre SAYS "Comedy"

    So what gives?

    I'm missing wishlist matches because of this :(

    Thanks
     
  2. Oct 4, 2011 #2 of 16
    steveroe

    steveroe Must do some work...

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    All data is now from Allt-epg, so any data queries are best asked/answered over on that forum (IMHO).
     
  3. Oct 4, 2011 #3 of 16
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    Except that one must be very careful indeed about how one asks any questions over there since the usual response on most points is that this is only an alpha test and/or you are lucky to still have anything at all and that comments other than those which heap praise on the unpaid developer volunteers are usually not welcome.

    The relatively inactive state of that forum suggests to me that most Tivo users who are not part of the elite AltEPG developer group are now somewhat frightened to ask questions about problems with the AltEPG data. I know that I certainly am.

    A really weird feature of the AltEPG data is that practically all my Suggestions (around 90 of them) are now films on obscure movie channels like TrueMovies, Movies4Men, Horror Channel and True Entertainment and very few of these films seem to come from the BBC, ITV, C4 or Five. I am also hardly getting any Suggestions at all for normal hour or half hour long series programs.

    Previously with the Tribune EPG data the situation was just the reverse and I hardly ever got Suggestions for films and got lots of Suggestion for series on the BBC, ITV, C4 and Five. This suggests to me that something fundamental has changed with genre codes in the AltEPG data as I am still thumbing programs on just the same kind of basis as I have always done.
     
  4. Oct 4, 2011 #4 of 16
    TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    The genres have indeed changed, because the genres in the source data are different.

    We all know why you have to keep your mouth shut over at the AltEPG forums; I'm pleased that you've wound your neck in a bit in one forum at least.

    I see PhilG has mastered the art of asking a simple question without p-ing every who reads it off, and has got the answer over at AltEPG.

    The same answer also explains your suggestions issue.
     
  5. Oct 5, 2011 #5 of 16
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    I see that the natural bossy headmaster or departmental manager in you is stlll alive and well then.

    Not directly.

    Are we saying that the Radio Times category data has more film genre top and sub category data than was true with Tribune and hence the Suggestions algorithm finds more films matches using its existing logic?

    There are not many questions being asked in that forum so either very few people are now using their Tivos or people are afraid of asking questions that its management don't currently find it politically convenient to have asked.
     
  6. Oct 5, 2011 #6 of 16
    TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    Or maybe their TiVos are working fine? Just a thought.

    The issue that PhilG is having is (according to MrTickle) related to a limit on the number of genres which can be associated with a show compared to Tribune data. As Suggestions basically work from genres, seems likely that that would account for the changes you've seen in suggestion behaviour.
     
  7. Oct 5, 2011 #7 of 16
    Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    As you say it seems likely there is a link but in what fashion exactly.

    Another very odd behaviour I have experienced with AltEPG data is that I set a Wishlist for "Bourne" after the showing of the first movie (The Bourne Identity) in the Bourne trilogy as Alt EPG data seemed to only be running 6 days ahead at that stage.

    I then found that with The Bourne Ultimatum the Wishlist recorded the first hour of the movie on ITV1 and then the first hour of the movie on ITV1+1 starting an hour later. But in neither case did it record the full movie. A further complication was that ITV1 split the movie in to two so that it was shown before and after the late evening news but the second half of the movie was not recorded in either case.

    This is very weird and hard to explain behaviour unless of course the EPG was itself wrong and only had each showing down as one hour. This does actually seem the most likely reason as I can't imagine any circumstances where a Wishlist only catches the first hour of a two hour plus long film even if it is also repeated on the +1 channel and looks like a different program to the Tivo due to having a different TMSID or no TMSID.

    I would post on these kind of topics on the AltEPG forum but I find them generally so hostile to any observation that sounds like criticism of the quality of their data that I am now reluctant to do so.
     
  8. Oct 5, 2011 #8 of 16
    SolidTechie

    SolidTechie New Member

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    You seem to think it's acceptable to malign a bunch of hard working volunteers, and argue and criticise.

    If you were to post the issues you were having as factual - ie just the evidence as you have posted it here, then nobody is going to get upset - it will benefit the whole community. you might even get a sensible answer

    Unfortunatley, you seem insistant on upsetting people, being argumentative ungrateful, and as we can see even in this thread, you persist in making unpleasant and more importantly, unwarranted personal attacks on other forum members. It's a shame, because on occasion, I have seen you make valuable contributions. As with all Communities, nobody owes you anything and you will only get out of it what you put into it.

    I doubt anyone here (or there) sympathises with your perspective. Now, be a man, quit bleating, get over it and move on.
     
  9. Oct 5, 2011 #9 of 16
    TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    No-one knows exactly how the Suggestions algorithm works, so you won't ever get an exact answer. But genres are a major part of it, so if we know that the AltEPG genres are not only different in what they are but also in how they are attached to Showings, then that being linked to a change in Suggestion behaviour seems an obvious thing.

    No it's not; you then went on to explain it. Sounds like the guide data was wrong in two ways; firstly it was not handling a split film very well. I can't now remember for a Tribune split film was handled now, as in general I'd rather stick pins in my eyes that watch the destruction of a film by ITV and its ads. Looks like both the first and second halves were set to have the same ID, so the wishlist only recorded one. It also sounds like it was not recognising the second showing on ITV1+1 as being the same film, so the wishlist also recorded the first half of that.

    In other words:

    Film part 1 ITV1, ID=1
    Film part 2 ITV1, ID=1
    Film part 1 ITV1+1, ID=2
    Film part 2 ITV1+1, ID=2

    should have been:

    Film part 1 ITV1, ID=1
    Film part 2 ITV1, ID=2
    Film part 1 ITV1+1, ID=1
    Film part 2 ITV1+1, ID=2


    I doubt that's true for anyone but you, but the thing would be to make sure that your question doesn't "sound like criticism", and doesn't sound like one of your stalking e-mails to the CEO of a large corporation. You're talking to a community of volunteers, not a customer service department.
     
  10. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    Ummm. Isn't that why we use a Tivo to view stuff on ITV1 instead? That way nobody has to watch the news interrupting the film.

    At least ITV was able to acquire the rights to show all three Bourne trilogy films in successive weeks when I don't think they have ever been shown on British tv before, being almost as big in Box Office terms as a James Bond movie or more specifially the earlier Bond movies when the series was most popular.

    My BOURNE wishlist actually recorded the first hour of the program on ITV1 and then on ITV1+1 an hour later. It didn't record the second half of the film after the news on either channel. I actually viewed it live on ITV 1+1 at my relative's house and by the time I got back home after a few days there and noticed the recordings the EPG data for that day had disappeared. To explain what happened I would tend to think there must have been an EPG error of some kind made by AltEPG. Both the ITV1 and ITV1+1 showings before the news had the same TMSID number allocated to them by the AltEPG when I checked that out as a possible reason.

    I think its also possible that the behaviour is associated with Title Wishlists under the AltEPG where the program in question is more than one hour long and shown on a main and +1 channel.
     
  11. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    Isn't that what I said? TMSIDs are only used in AltEPG to let hacks work which use them; they don't represent an underlying unique identifier any more.

    Highly, highly unlikely. Occam's razor suggests a straightforward EPG error.
     
  12. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    I suppose this would in turn be brought on by the confusion of the news break.

    For each of the two recordings the program started 15 minutes late but I suppose that might be down to a last minute scheduling change by ITV that AltEPG had not caught up with? I can't remember exactly when the news bulletin took place but it surely can't have been much later than 11.15pm.
     
  13. spitfires

    spitfires wassock

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    Unless you have volunteered to test the new TMSids (which action is of course unlikely) then you will not be getting any TMSids in your current TVGuide data. Therefore your TiVo sees the +1 and +0 showings as different programmes and doesn't identify them as repeats. (i.e. it will try to record all of them).


    As stated, it's then likely that a simple TVGuide error failed to spot the post-news parts in either case. The guys on the AltEPG forum could confirm this for you.
     
  14. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    spitfires, i think you're confusing TMSID with each programme being separately identified. The uniqueness of a programme is not keyed into its TMSID but its ServerID. With Tribune, the TMSID was also unique and was typically used in hacks because it contains extra information, while the ServerID is just a number.

    If AltEPG didn't include an identifying ID then hardly any of TiVo's functions would work, not just two part films.
     
  15. spitfires

    spitfires wassock

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    Quite possibly! ;) I'm still a tyro on the database structure of my beloved TiVo :) (I've perused the schema but I couldn't tie it all up with what I've learnt from TW etc).

    So why is it that the AltEPG currently records repeats of films then?
    (I thought it was the lack of tmsid but obv I was wrong, so I'd like to learn).
     
  16. TCM2007

    TCM2007 New Member

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    MrTickle is the expert on how the AltEPG data structure works, but if it's recording a film twice on a wish list, it must mot be set up right in the source database
     

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