Game of Thrones "The Watchers on the Wall" 6/08/14 S4E9

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by Shaunnick, Jun 8, 2014.

  1. Jun 9, 2014 #41 of 271

    gweempose Well-Known Member

    Mar 23, 2003
    Northbrook, IL
    I believe that is correct. If they do not escape to the South, they will all be killed by the White Walkers. This threat is why Mance Rayder was able to unite all the Wildling clans.
  2. Jun 9, 2014 #42 of 271

    Steveknj Lost in New Joisey TCF Club

    Mar 10, 2003
    New Jersey
    My thought was, with Winter coming, they need to move south to survive, plus there's the White Walkers to contend with. With the Wall not very heavily fortified and the North of the realm in flux with the Starks out of the picture, they probably felt now was the perfect time to strike. IF they win the battle and the Wall is permanently breached, ultimately there will be a battle between the Boltons and the Wildlings, as both move into the North.
  3. Jun 9, 2014 #43 of 271

    BitbyBlit .

    Aug 25, 2001
    And I think their goal was to try to follow that same "epic battle" feel in this episode. However, in my opinion, it didn't reach that level.

    Part of it was what Bob mentioned about the faceless people fighting. The fighting also started earlier in this episode, so it went on longer.

    I still enjoyed it well enough, but would have preferred that they trimmed 5 - 10 minutes of the Wall battle, and given us that plus another 6-7 minutes to fill up the hour of moving forward other storylines.

    Mance only has his knowledge of the state of the Wall when he left plus what Jon told him to go on. He likely thinks there is an order of magnitude more men than there actually are defending the Wall.

    If he knew that there were only 6 men defending the tunnel (and 1 at the time he was trying to dislodge the gate), he probably would have had the giants hold open the gate to get enough men through to take the tunnel, and then permanently open it.

    But since he didn't know that, leaving the door down while trying to dislodge it served as a shield to protect his men from those in the tunnel while they were trying to complete their task.
  4. Jun 9, 2014 #44 of 271

    tiassa Me --Avatar

    Jul 2, 2008
    That is why this episode wasn't as good as Blackwater. In the Battle of Blackwater Bay there were 3 factions we cared about, Stannis &Co attacking, Tyrion &Co defending, and Cersei, Sansa and the other women in the "panic room". This battle we cared a lot about the Night's Watch, somewhat less about Mance's army and that was it.

    What Jon Snow should do is offer Mance and the wildlings some kind of Amnesty if they help defend against the White Walkers and otherwise behave themselves going forward, but this being Game of Thrones they will probably make the worst possible decision for the long term survival of Westeros.
  5. Jun 9, 2014 #45 of 271

    JoeyJoJo Damaged Goods

    Sep 29, 2003
    Southern NH.
    He didn't look all that alive when Sam went back to get Gilly after the battle.

    One of the first shots of the gate showed chains and a lock that they hooked the mammoth to. They broke the locks but couldn't get the gate pulled out before the mammoth BBQ.
  6. Jun 9, 2014 #46 of 271

    smbaker Well-Known Member

    May 24, 2003
    I felt there was more to it than this. It sounded like the Wildlings had been driven out of the North by the kingdom, and they wanted their ancestral home back. My gut feeling was that Mance united them not so much out of the white walker threat, but out of the desire to recapture the North.

    To me, it felt like this was an episode that just had to happen. The battle has been coming for a season or two. It was inevitable, so they had to spend time on it.

    Unfortunately, this made the whole thing very predictable, and thus very boring. We knew there was going to be a two-front attack on the castle. We knew that many of the watch would be killed (most of them we don't care about anyway). We knew that Mance wouldn't take the castle and invade the North, because a million wildlings running around Westeros would sorta wreck every other plot line that's going on.

    For me, the only suspense was in wondering which of Ygritte and Jon Snow would be killed. I figured Jon Snow would be safe, but with GRRM you never know. That led me to suspect it would be Ygritte who wouldn't make it, and I was correct.

    The next Jon Snow scene will be more interesting, when he puts his 'very bad plan' into play and tries to kill Mance. He's right that it's the only thing they can do, but I think he's wrong that this would cause the wildlings to disperse.

    I still contend that having a million wildlings breach the wall and invade Westeros would wreck the rest of the story. Nobody south of the wall seems to be in a position to help. I have to wonder if the white walkers will finally show up and resolve this. The wildlings are all stuck out in the open and quite literally backed against a wall. Easy prey.
  7. Jun 9, 2014 #47 of 271

    Anubys All About Footwork

    Jul 16, 2004
    Janos Slynt was very much alive when Sam found him hiding behind the door.
  8. Jun 9, 2014 #48 of 271

    Anubys All About Footwork

    Jul 16, 2004
    You've added an extra zero's "only" 100,000 :)
  9. Jun 9, 2014 #49 of 271

    NoThru22 Smelly Pirate Hooker

    May 6, 2005
    Bel Air, MD
    Was that in the book? It seemed awfully fan-servicey.
    Yeah, everyone asking why they didn't ask for reinforcements needs to remember that that's all they've been doing, and people have been dismissing the threat.
  10. Jun 9, 2014 #50 of 271

    Anubys All About Footwork

    Jul 16, 2004
    I bet it is in the book. This author is famous for giving the readers what they expect and want!
  11. Jun 9, 2014 #51 of 271

    Rickvz TiVoholic

    Sep 5, 2000
    If anything, Ygritte says it more often in the books.

    Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk
  12. Jun 9, 2014 #52 of 271

    MarkL Member

    Jul 1, 2005
    Tulsa, OK
    At the end, Jon asks who is around to give anyone orders. Are we to assume from this that Thorne is dead? He was wounded but alive and giving orders last we saw him. And yes, if he's dead, is the coward Slynt next in line? If so, would anyone take orders from him at this point?

    The idea that a dead Mance means the wilding army falls apart is consistent with what Mance told Jon last season. Rayder finally gathered all the warring clans together. Without Rayder, who would lead the army? Rayder believed it would fall apart without him. He's probably right. It's not like Tormund and the Thenns seemed to be good buddies fighting for a common cause.
  13. Jun 9, 2014 #53 of 271

    BitbyBlit .

    Aug 25, 2001
    Going by the numbers running up to the gate, I don't think there were more than 50. And probably about 10% were killed by arrows on the way up. (In other words, they were decimated. :D)

    Their original plan with non-traitor Jon Snow was to catch the Night's Watch off guard, and simply hold them off long enough to open the gate. That's why they only sent a small team over the wall. They did not want to be noticed until it was too late.

    One thought I had at the beginning was that the white walkers might have been waiting for Mance to breach the gate. If he had been successful, then as his army was moving toward the tunnel, their army would come out and there would be an epic battle between their two giant armies.

    I thought that perhaps Mance and his army would have been wiped out, and what was left of the wildlings and Night's Watch south of the Wall would have had to stop fighting and work together to hold off the white walker army until they could collapse the tunnel.
  14. Jun 9, 2014 #54 of 271
    Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    Oct 17, 2000
    How DARE you use that word properly! Un-American! Commie! TALIBAN!
  15. Jun 9, 2014 #55 of 271

    zordude WDW Fan TCF Club

    Sep 23, 2003
    Nashua, NH
    I don't think we knew this at all.

    The North has been kind of lacking in the story department, and an occupied force of 100K wildlings could make things interesting.
  16. Jun 9, 2014 #56 of 271

    BeanMeScot Sci-Fi Junkie

    Apr 17, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Ygritte book spoiler

    In the book, Jon finds her dead after the battle. He didn't even know who killed her. Just that the arrow in her body wasn't his.
  17. Jun 9, 2014 #57 of 271

    DUDE_NJX Well-Known Member

    Feb 12, 2003
    I root for the White Walkers. I hope they're the ultimate occupants and rulers of Westeros. F people.
  18. Jun 9, 2014 #58 of 271

    smbaker Well-Known Member

    May 24, 2003
    Which part? We've known about wildlings sacking villages south of the wall all season. We knew they were waiting for Mance's attack to commence north of the wall (100k, not 1 million, but still a sizable force). Thus a two-front attack against the castle was inevitable. The staffing of Castle Black made it very likely that many of the watch would be killed.

    This whole episode was the fight that fit those circumstances. That's why, IMO, it was boring.

    Indeed. I still think it would render so much of the politics of Westeros moot that it's not a viable occurrence at this time in the plot. A common enemy unites people.

    Maybe GRRM will surprise me and decide to unite Westeros against the Wildling invasion. I rather doubt it though; uniting people doesn't seem his style.

    More likely, I think White Walkers hit the Wildlings, and then for no good reason retreat for the next couple of years so that the tagline "Winter is coming" can continue to be used.
  19. Jun 9, 2014 #59 of 271

    zordude WDW Fan TCF Club

    Sep 23, 2003
    Nashua, NH
    Sorry I meant to cut more from the quote than I did.

  20. Jun 9, 2014 #60 of 271

    Honora Member

    Oct 16, 2006
    I had the same trouble reading the books. Since each chapter or group of chapters is told from a character's viewpoint, there were times that I would turn the page and yell, "NOOO. I don't want to go back to The Wall. I want to stay with Arya, or Tyrion."

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