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Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by Rob Helmerichs, May 12, 2019.
The one quibble I'd make is that she's really pushing Jon away from her...he's been trying to stand by her far beyond reason, I'd say, but in the end there's only so much pushing he can take, and he's reached his limit.
I am reminded by the oaths exchanged between a Lord and his/her sworn protector.
"I vow that you should always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table. I pledge to ask no service of you that may bring you dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new"
I wonder if Greyworm will feel good about what he's done now that he's had his revenge. We know Dany will not feel bad; but will Greyworm feel the sting of dishonor?
That's my perspective. Like every other modern day hero, he's had his dark side, he's not always won, but he's done some heroic things, especially going out and facing White Walkers. One thing he did was get some of the Freefolk on the side of folks from Westeros.
Where everybody knows your name?
Interesting take on Dany.
As with almost all of these high profile series finale seasons we get the usual "some love it, some hate it". Some say it's bad writing others say, no, the clues have been there and this is exactly why it should have happened the way it did. Who are we to question what happened? We may not like the ending but this is the ending that D&D envisioned, and I guess GRRM worked with them on this? I think a lot of us here are upset on what happened with Dany, or the way certain characters lived and died. But WE didn't write this did we? I've yet to find an ending to a long running show that ended the way I expected, and I think it will be the same here. Perhaps that's better? I don't know. After thinking about this for a couple of days, not being happy with vengeful Dany, I've just come to the conclusion that this is the story and that's it. No ending will satisfy everyone. The hero wins? Too sappy, the hero is killed? Boooo, we want our heroes to live. Everyone is a critic My only complaint is that it feels rushed, but I think the story is the story, and really, it's still damned great!!
I am was a book reader well before the show was even announced. I say that not to suggest that my opinion of this episode/season is any more valid, but because it informs my perspective. Unlike someone who posted a short while back, even when the show tracked the books I always viewed it as a cliff notes version so my whole experience with this show is cutting it a lot of slack and just enjoying it as it hits the high points. In that regard the show as a whole has exceeded my wildest expectations. I think because I have always felt this way, I have not been as bothered by the even cliffier notes version (is that a word?) that we are getting this year. I enjoyed episode 4 even recognizing the increasingly ludicrous nature of travel times and obvious moving of pieces.
With all that said, I loved this episode and was actually pretty shocked to go online and see all the hate. After it ended, my first thought was that all the complaints from last week would die down because the moving of the pieces (rushed as they may be) paid off in spades. I absolutely think Dany's development could have used a little more massaging before the turn, but I also think we had enough to work with that it's unfair to act as if it came out of nowhere. I think as a book reader at this point all I was looking for was to finally see what happens and Dany turning into the Mad Queen is a satisfying plot development to me even though I recognize that it could have been set up better in the final stretch. However, I am not a tv critic nor am I a screenwriting professor. I am, however, a viewer and as such I enjoyed the holy hell out of this episode.
As for Jaimie, I know I am in the minority, but I just don't see that they did anything to undermine his arc. I never viewed him as completely rehabilitated, but just not nearly the black hat he was portrayed as at the beginning. Like many characters on this show, Jaimie is a unique shade of gray. When keeping in mind that only a few months ago he was still sleeping with Cersei, I'm not sure how his inability to give her up undermines anything. I'll admit that I would have preferred if Brienne just died in battle so that we were spared her heartbreak, but I was totally not surprised or taken aback when Jaimie went back to King's Landing because I've never thought of him as a good guy, just a flawed character capable of good and bad. Jaimie and Cersei have always had a strange but strong bond and it was rightfully his undoing.
This series of tweets, written after last week's episode, offers what I think is a really insightful explanation for some of the writing issues this year. Definitely worth a two minute read for those who are interested.
Great post. I have only read the first and part of the second book (and there have been very few TV series/movies better than the books), and there's just no way you could go into the level of detail that a book does, and you lose a little bit of that for some series and a LOT for others). With that said, you're spot on. Your quibbles are mine. Dany's plunge into "the dark side" as it were, needed to be sussed out a bit more is my only complaint. A book can do that much better. But the fact that she went there, after i thought about it and got over my initial shock, shouldn't have surprised me. As for Jamie, I would have much preferred a spark with Brienne, without sleeping with her, maybe they kiss, he realizes that he is who he is and then lets her down much more easily, but I guess that's not who he is either. He's always been a scoundrel who in the end was still one, despite a series of attempts to rehabilitate him.
I am ready for whatever they throw at me in the finale. I'm sure some of it I will like, some I won't. As long as the main story, who ends up on the throne is settled, I'll be ok with whatever that is.
I think it would have been great if Cersei - upon seeing Jaime had come for her - had exclaimed: "Jaime! I'm so glad the assassin I sent to kill you did not succeed!"
I double the nevermind!
Sometimes people hope that over the course of a series, the characters might grow. When they end up being the same person they were, it's a bit of a let down.
That being said, holy cow, some of you take this show a bit too seriously. It's just a TV show.
No. My participation in these threads over the years has been sporadic so if this topic at the time caused heated arguments here it is certainly not my intent to re-raise them now. I will delete that part of the post.
ETA: Although I will say that the tone of your post is really rude, though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your rudeness was as unintentional as my "transparent baiting". That comment might be appropriate towards a poster who is known for trying to stir things up, but I can't imagine I fall into that category.
The hard stop of this show forced the condensing of time and character arcs. I can understand that criticism but did we really need three or four more episodes of Dany getting more and more pissed off to prove that she's unworthy and Jon rescuing drowning puppies to prove he's noble? The seeds of their characters have been sown over the years. You can nitpick holes and find things you don't like in every story every told. If you can't, someone else will. That doesn't prove that the writing is bad and don't know what they're doing. It just means that you would have preferred something different. Personally, I wish they'd would have condensed even more of Snidely Whiplash, I mean Euron Greyjoy, out of the story. Cercei and Jamie is just yuck. I wouldn't have had them together at their end. They had to get to a point where Dany didn't believe in Tyrion's counsel any more, so he became not so smart this season. Jon needed a dragon to help substantiate his claim as a Targaryen but he couldn't have a dragon to confront Dany with so his dragon had to die. Those are just a couple of things I would have done differently but that doesn't mean that the show runners' ideas were bad. I'll be happy I spent the time on this season and the series as a whole no matter what the finale unfolds. Unless it's a cliffhanger, then I'll be mad.
The more I think about it, the more I believe that this was an excellent episode.
We finally had some effective dragon tactics.
We had several good major-character deaths. The good guys died well and the bad/gray guys died in character. Specifically, Jaime died comforting the woman he loved. That's not so bad and it's in character.
Dany's broken. She may well say that she only has fear to work with and that she needed to intimidate the rest of Westeros, but that's an excuse. She's Mad Queen broken. Stop looking for reason. And as other's have pointed out, it shouldn't be a surprise. Grey Worm is broken, too.
We saw Tyrion and Jon's dawning realization that Dany's broken.
We saw Arya realize that being the one to kill Cersei wasn't worth her life.
My only nit, and it's minor, is Arya and the horse being the only living things as far as you could see. That's up there with the ratio of major/unknown characters surviving the battle with the NK. It would've been more realistic if a couple of other people were seen pulling themselves out of the rubble, too. But then she couldn't ride away on a Pale Horse if others there needed help. They must have really wanted that imagery.
Even if it was, let the community decide what it wants to comment on, not the thread police.
Jaime didn't rape Brienne so that should count for something. The weird thing is that Jaime's hair got darker as he became a better person.
Edited: I got called out for spelling and grammar errors.
I think if they had removed the heavy handed "bitches be crazy" mantra this season it would have been better.
It all started released with me in the scene with Jon and Sam in the crypt where Sam, having never meet met Dany before tells Jon she's crazy and he should be King. It was too heavy handed. His Sam's dad and brother were idiots refusing an offer they should've have refused. If killing people who were insubordinate was a critical flaw in the right to the throne then Jon should be disqualified for when he beheaded Janos Slynt.
Then Sansa, why was Sansa so very anti Dany to the point of rude and insulting. Then Tyron Tyrion suddenly being "afraid" of Dany? Why And why was Varys suddenly hard dropping his support of Dany?
I hate the way the writers did it.
Honestly if they just removed what I suggested in the paragraph above, and after losing Missendai, rhaegal, Jon no longer being intimately close, and the lack of love she was used to be getting from those she fought for, and she just suddenly went genocide, I think even that would've been better than what we got.
As we saw in the scenes from the Keep, the city is huge. Dany didn't torch all of it. And even places she burned had survivors. There will be thousands and thousands of survivors, including many of our favorite characters.
I also thought it was an excellent episode. The ending with the white horse was a bit hokey, but I'll survive.