FIOS sunk my Galleon!

Discussion in 'TiVo Home Media Features & TiVoToGo' started by Doug G, Aug 15, 2009.

  1. Doug G

    Doug G Member

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    Mar 3, 2005
    MA

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    Got FIOS installed today. Went pretty smoothly all things considered. I have two HD Tivos now with M-cards and connected over ethernet using MoCA adapters (DCT700's) I previously bought off eBay back in May.

    I had everything set up and running for several months (using a third MoCA adapter at my 4-port switch near my PC) with no problems. pyTivo, Galleon, even tried Streambaby, all worked flawlessly. Today my DSL modem, old single port linksys cable router, third MoCA adapter, and 4-port ethernet switch were collectively replaced with one of these Vz Actiontech wireless routers. MoCA came right up and both Tivos have IP connectivity and can even see my pyTivo shared videos directory from the Now Playing list.

    But none of my HME apps are anywhere to be found! I've rebooted everything - several times - but no joy. Galleon GUI starts and can talk to server but doesn't find any Tivos. Weirdly, it CAN see the recorded shows (as can pyTivo) in the TTG area. I tried to enter the PC address as a manual server and Tivos say "server not found". Again, IP network is completely operational, even to external sites like YouTube. I verified all the firewall ports (win xp) are still opened so I don't get it. I also thought maybe I needed to open some ports on the router but then verified on the data sheet that the two MoCA adapters I'm using with the Tivos are connected in the LAN segment (as opposed to the WAN segment where it connects to the ONT) so I shouldn't need to port forward since they're on the same subnet as my PC as evidenced by the IPs their using (which I also changed to static DHCP allocations so they don't change since I turn my PC off when not in use.)

    I could really use some help here, I had this all working beautifully and now its all come crashing down and I've spent the entire day trying to resolve it with no luck.
     
  2. windracer

    windracer joined the 10k club

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    Is there anything in Galleon's log that might shed some light on the situation? It does sound like either a network routing or firewall issue.

    I have no experience with MoCA adapters, though ...
     
  3. TiivoDog

    TiivoDog FIOS Fast!!!

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    I have Fios and use a couple of MoCa adapters (not with any Tivos),
    however I would bet your issue is with the Actiontec router itself
    as a port might be blocked or some other firewall setting in the router.
     
  4. Doug G

    Doug G Member

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    There are no errors in the logs that I can see.....

    Just for kicks I reinstalled TD 2.7 and sure enough it doesn't work either, so it has to be the router.

    Each of my two Tivos has a MoCA adatper and both are using the LAN segment frequency. The Tivos have IPs on the local segment and can utilize all IP functionality as well as see each other as well as my shared videos on my PC.

    I shouldn't have to set up any port forwarding since I'm on the same LAN segment (albeit bridged) but I tried and still no joy.

    Does anyone know how to get the HME working with these VZ actiontec routers? Somebody has to be doing this with one....
     
  5. windracer

    windracer joined the 10k club

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    Doing a quick Google search on TiVo and that Actiontec router seems to find others with a similar problem to yours, and it does seem to point to the firewall inside the router.
     
  6. Doug G

    Doug G Member

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    Yeah, I've been searching but looks like I have to keep reading....

    This morning I had one unit on and noticed that the TD apps did show up, but then as I watched they actually disappeared from the list right before my eyes! I went back and tried to re-enter the music/photos/downloads screen but they didn't appear again.

    I even went thru the trouble of opening all the same ports for all devices on the local LAN segment on the router as in my XP firewall just in case the MoCA (LAN) bridge appeared to look like WAN somehow, and still no joy.

    Now I know why everyone says this router is junk...
     
  7. sgip2000

    sgip2000 New Member

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    Hillsboro,...
    Unless you are using a Verizon Motorola box, you don't "need" the Actiontec router.

    The Actiontec router is only required for the Verizon boxes.

    Since you already have MoCA bridges, you can use any off the shelf router with a third MoCA bridge connected to that router.

    Similar to the setup you originally had.
     
  8. CuriousMark

    CuriousMark Forum Denizen

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    Some wireless routers have a setting to block to broadcasts. If yours does, try turning it off and see if that helps.
     
  9. Doug G

    Doug G Member

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    Mar 3, 2005
    MA
    I just finished posting this over on the HD Tivo thread on AVS, but wanted to also put it here for good measure.

    I have CONFIRMED that the Actiontec MI424-WR router is an absolute POS.

    If you are using HME with any kind of PC application software (Galleon, TD, etc.) this router CANNOT BE USED since it effectively blocks the traffic required by these applications WITHIN THE LAN SEGMENT.

    However, if you don't have any STBs which require the MoCA link for VoD/widget/guide (as I do) then there is a workaround to get your HME apps up and running. In my case I have two HD Tivos with M-cards and a single digital adapter so I don't need the MoCA in the router. As it turns out, the digital adapter apparently doesn't use the MoCA for IPTV as I feared but seems to contain an actual tuner capable of demodulating the video signal on the coax. (Disconnecting the coax from the actiontec didn't cause it to lose any signal.) This is key to making the workaround below possible.

    As stated above, you can't use any of the LAN interfaces in the actiontec, either natively or bridged, with the HME applications. You must use an external device. In my case, I use MoCA via NIM100s on my Tivos. For this config a total of three NIM100s is required. Luckily since I had this working prior to the FIOS install I had a third one I was using at my PC!

    Here's how I worked around the completely deficient LAN interface on the Craptiontec:

    1) Disconnect the coax at the WAN interface (to ONT) of the router.
    2) Using a 1GHz or higher rated splitter, split the cable - one lead to router, second lead to NIM100.
    3) Disable the Coax LAN interface on the router in network setup.
    4) Remove all ethernet connections from the router, and insert them in the external switch of your choice.
    5) Connect the ethernet port of the NIM100 to the external switch
    6) Connect a single uplink cable from the external switch to the router.
    7) You can leave the DHCP enabled in the router if using a simple switch-only as I am. If you are using a router, you will need to disable the DHCP in the actiontec and give the new router a static IP and then enable DHCP on it. I think you also need to ensure that only one device is performing NAT, but not sure how to disable that on the actiontec.

    That's it. This configuration completely removes all LAN traffic from the router except as an uplink to the FIOS network. Note that your PC may lose its IP during all this and if it happens to DHCP when only the NIM100 is available, it will give it a 169.254.x.x address. Just manually release/renew the IP using ipconfig from a command window and the router will assign it a proper IP address again on 192.168.1.x.

    In my case since I don't use the wireless interface I also disabled that. If using an external router, there may be other details about this configuration (step 7) that are required. Since I'm not using it like this now I encourage a little due diligence to make sure nothing else is needed, its possible I may have missed something. There are plenty of FAQs and write-ups on how to completely bypass this router in different ways so I'm sure if I've overlooked anything its mentioned in one of these somewhere.

    Netgear has a new MoCA/wireless router forthcoming and when it hits the market I plan to buy one and completely bypass this garbage actiontec unit. If the Netgear unit is true to MoCA standards, it should also allow those with STBs needing the MoCA functionality for VoD/guide/widet to utilize this workaround and still maintain full functionality through the MoCA interface using the Netgear unit. In this configuration the actiontec is used strictly as an ethernet to MoCA WAN bridge, effectively reducing it to something like a DSL modem (which is really all its qualified to be as you can see!)

    Oh, and for those hoping to use DD-WRT (which I just found out about) they don't currently support the rev E hardware I have but it looks like their firmware also isn't compatible with the FIOS port so its really not an option for anyone like me needing the Moca WAN interface to work to the ONT.

    So I hope this helps anyone using one of the paperweight routers and wondering why their multimedia apps (also AppleTV-iTunes has this same issue) have stopped working.
     
  10. wmcbrine

    wmcbrine Well-Known Mumbler

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    I've had no such issues. Maybe there's a problem going between MoCA and Ethernet segments; I don't know. But Ethernet <-> Ethernet works fine.
     
  11. steve101

    steve101 Member

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    Jan 4, 2005
    Virginia, USA
    I have the ActionTec router and the following setup:
    2 FIOS standard STB
    2 Tivos using MOCA
    2 Tivos using Ethernet (hardwired)
    Multiple computers, most hardwired but some wireless
    PyTivo, AudioFaucet

    I have no problem accessing any of the Tivo's from anywhere on the lan (ping or http) and all of the Tivo's see the pyTivo and AudioFaucet shares. All of the Tivo's see each other in the Now Playing.

    I do NOT have the ports for pyTivo and AudioFaucet open in the Router - only at the PC they run on. I did not have to do any fiddling with the ActionTec to get the Tivos/apps running - did have to set some firewall rules for other things, but not for this issue.

    Edit: ONT to router is Coax only.
     
  12. Doug G

    Doug G Member

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    Before putting my old 4 port Netgear ethernet switch back in, I tried just using the ethernet ports on the router (connected third NIM100 to actiontec) and still no Galleon/TD apps. As soon as I put the switch back so that no local LAN traffic hit the actiontec, it started working immediately!

    Are you using either Galleon or TD? As I said in my original post, TTG and even pyTivo do work using the actiontec. I could also ping both Tivos and neither had a problem accessing the Internet. It was *only* the HME apps that didn't work.

    I read a post about a similar problem where the author indicated that apps which use multiple ports simultaneously from a single IP are considered a security threat by this router according to actiontec support (yes, even on the LAN only!) and so they are shut down. How lame is that?! (I believe pyTivo uses a single port which may explain why that works.) All I know is it works now. I tried everything, even opening ports in the firewall (which shouldn't be necessary for LAN-only traffic) and nothing worked. This experience is similar to other users, I found lots of other people with the exact same problem. It seems anything which uses Bonjour/Rendezvous protocol that opens multiple ports just doesn't work on this thing.

    Of course if there's some obscure setting I need the secret decoder ring to access which will make this work, I'd love to know!

    Yup, same as me. As I said above, all the same things you note worked for me in that config (although I don't use Audiofaucet or know anything about it.) It was just the Galleon/TD apps which apparently rely on multiple TCP/UDP ports being used simultaneously which don't work. Heck, even the "port configuration test" when using the actiontec passed with flying colors but it still didn't work.

    The actiontec does have a problem and this is the only way to workaround it I've found.
     
  13. steve101

    steve101 Member

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    Jan 4, 2005
    Virginia, USA

    Just confirmed TivoDesktop (2.7) does work in my configuration - shows in the NP
    of the Tivos and the photos ( I didnt have any music shared) show in the Music Photos & Showcases along with the other HME apps.

    I have cat5 cables in all four of the ActionTec ports and the wireless is off, I use
    a linksys WAP for wireless (it is plugged into one of the four ports).
     
  14. wmcbrine

    wmcbrine Well-Known Mumbler

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    I don't get what you're saying there. But I have no MoCA segments on my LAN, except Verizon STB <-> router. No NIMs.

    No, but I have lots of HME apps. I have used Galleon and TD in the past.

    But the router doesn't know anything about apps -- only packets.

    Not quite. It's one port for most functions, but a separate port for the old beacon system, and (if you're using a fairly recent version of pyTivo) yet a third port for the new beacon system.

    HME apps use the new beacon system (zeroconf-based) exclusively. If they're disappearing, that's where the problem lies, for what it's worth. pyTivo can still be detected via the old system if the new one is blocked.

    First I've heard of it.

    That's why I didn't answer your initial posts -- you were asking what we did to make it work. I didn't do anything. It always worked.
     
  15. Doug G

    Doug G Member

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    What I meant re: the third NIM100 was that first I tried to just connect its ethernet port to the actiontec so that all devices would be on the same physical device (no bridging between the internal MoCA LAN and ethernet LAN required) in case there was some problem with the bridging.

    Applications use packets to open ports and send/receive data. As I said I found at least one post in another forum where someone claimed that actiontec support told them even if indirectly that a single source IP attempting to open multiple ports simultaneously was considered a security problem and was disallowed. I don't know if this is correct but it seems to fit my experience.

    I don't really know anything about the beacon systems used, but in the LAN it shouldn't matter since there is no firewall. All ports are open and available. Maybe if you can explain a little more it might shed some light on what could be the problem. But I've been thru every single setting in this thing and nothing I found was applicable nor did anything I tried make any difference.

    To both you and steve101, which version of the router do you have, rev E like I do? I think these are pretty new and they seem completely different from the older (D and previous) revs. I'm still convinced this thing has some problem with LAN traffic since my simple ethernet-only switch completely resolves the issue, and for LAN purposes they should be functionally identical.

    I specifically bought the NIM100s knowing I'd eventually be upgrading to FIOS and they were natively supported in the provided router, so its been very frustrating that I can't get things working properly using the MoCA support in the actiontec. But at least I have the third one I can use as before to get things working the way they used to before I got FIOS.

    I'd appreciate any other comments/thoughts/suggestions you might have. I'd still like to use this as I originally intended, but I'm just out of ideas/options at this point.
     
  16. Doug G

    Doug G Member

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    Mar 3, 2005
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    Just to confirm once again I removed the NIM100 ethernet connection from my local dumb switch and put it back in the ethernet port on the actiontec and while I could see and use the apps because they were cached in the Tivo, once I rebooted the Tivo I could no longer see them (even though it had full IP connectivity with everything else.) Simply moving the connection back to my dumb switch immediately alleviated this problem and the HME apps reappeared. I'm sure if I had left the cable plugged into the actiontec long enough I would have seen the "disappearing" app problem many report.

    I don't know if its this so-called "stateful packet inspection" (SPI) feature or what but this thing definitely has a problem where its intentionally blocking some traffic on the local LAN segment incorrectly. How bogus.

    Maybe at some point I'll be motivated enough to sniff it (Wireshark) to see what's not getting thru when the actiontec is used but for now I've resolved that I'll only be able to use this thing as an uplink to the FIOS network.
     
  17. lew

    lew Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember which problems but I solved some problems when entered my tivo's network settings page and gave my tivo a static address instead of the default setting (DHCP)
     
  18. steve101

    steve101 Member

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    Jan 4, 2005
    Virginia, USA
    My router says hardware version A and firmware version 4.0.16.1.56.0.10.11.6.
    This is from the web admin - I'll have to verify on the box later today.

    I went browsing through my configuration in the router and can't see anything
    that stands out as applying to this issue.

    My setup is ONT -> coax -> ActionTec -> one port to linksys WAP, three to
    switches in other locations to support other computers/devices. Two tivos
    hardwired (both series 2 with usb converters) two Moca (one series3, one tivohd).
    Actiontec wireless turned off (it sucked), all external ports locked down except
    my vpn I use when not at home.

    Oh - and all tivo's are on static ip's (cant see how that would matter
    though) and everything uses the router as dns (which has opendns
    in it's configuration for external dns).
     
  19. Doug G

    Doug G Member

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    I did a little reading about zeroconf and see its basically a competitor to uPnP. I noticed the uPnP support is enabled in the router by default. I couldn't find any info if these two protocols can co-exist, but could uPnP be the root of all these apparent mDNS problems that keep my HME apps from showing up?
     
  20. wmcbrine

    wmcbrine Well-Known Mumbler

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    No. They coexist fine.
     

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