FiOS restriction --- Transferring prohibited by the copyright holder.

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by Phantom Gremlin, Jun 10, 2010.

  1. Jun 12, 2010 #81 of 813
    vurbano

    vurbano Member

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    Well Directv and Dish are able to do it.
     
  2. Jun 12, 2010 #82 of 813
    vurbano

    vurbano Member

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    so are the HR20-100's directv has???
     
  3. Jun 12, 2010 #83 of 813
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    For the S3 and the THD, yes. For the Premier, no (at least not yet).
     
  4. Jun 12, 2010 #84 of 813
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    DirecTV and Dish are not bound by CableLabs certifications.
     
  5. Jun 12, 2010 #85 of 813
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...

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    I do not know what level or type of encription the DirecTV receivers employ, if any. I also do not know if the HR20-100 (officially) supports copying to or from an external PC. The TiVo has to be able to record two maximum definition MPEG II streams from Cable and / or OTA and at least one inbound IP stream while simultaneously reading at least one outbound IP stream and one stream being sent to the attached display. That's a lot of processing when all of the streams may be MPEG II and all of them except perhaps one MRV stream have to be encrypted or decrypted, as the case may be.
     
  6. Jun 12, 2010 #86 of 813
    orangeboy

    orangeboy yes, I AM orangeboy!

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    Yes, I guess I was focusing more on the Premieres, where coding a Stagecraft streaming model (perhaps from scratch) could be viable. I need to pay more attention to the forum I'm posting in! :D
     
  7. Jun 12, 2010 #87 of 813
    shwru980r

    shwru980r Well-Known Member

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    You're overstating your case. You can still watch the recording on the TIVO it was recorded on.
     
  8. Jun 12, 2010 #88 of 813
    bicker

    bicker bUU

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    Actually I'm almost always correct, at least with regard to times when you and I disagree. You're generally wrong about just about everything business related. My answer was indeed a business answer, and it didn't regard the technical considerations. Relish this unique opportunity where you have something useful to add to a discussion I participate in.
     
  9. Jun 12, 2010 #89 of 813
    lrhorer

    lrhorer Active Member

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    San...
    The CCI byte has nothing to do with the CableCard or any pairing or lack thereof. It is a byte, embedded in the video stream. The CableCards only decrypt the video stream if it is encrypted. Hypothetically, the CATV company could distribute unencrypted video with the CCI byte set, in which case the user could record the video even if they don't have CableCards, yet they still would not be able to copy the video to another device.
     
  10. Jun 12, 2010 #90 of 813
    Phantom Gremlin

    Phantom Gremlin Active Member

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    I'm not sure why you think the TiVo HD couldn't implement effective copy protection. It should be trivial. I'm not familiar with the details of how TiVo stores the programs on the hard disk, but it's one of two cases:

    1) programs are already encrypted on disk
    or
    2) programs stored on disk in the clear

    I believe the correct answer is #1. So why can't TiVo just ship previously encrypted data from machine to machine? Everything I've tried with my HDs leads me to believe that TiVo<-->TiVo copying of high def material occurs at faster than real time. And even if it were slower than real time, "streaming" could easily be implemented by simply having the destination machine buffer a certain amount of the program before allowing playback.

    And if the data is not encrypted on disk, there's a very simple solution for that if the CPU doesn't have much horsepower. Before sending to the destination TiVo, just encrypt key portions of I-frames only. E.g. encrypting just a random 10% of the bytes in each I-frame would render the entire MPEG stream useless w/o the key. The Qualcomm supplied encryption algorithm is already very fast. Applying it to only 1% or even 5% of the total bytes would make it even faster and still maintain complete security.
     
  11. Jun 12, 2010 #91 of 813
    cwerdna

    cwerdna Proud Tivolutionary

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    http://www.tivo.com/copyprotection/ says
    In the past (at least before 6/7), Verizon never paired CableCARDs. Also, before 6/7, (I don't have any premium channels like HBO or Showtime) I'd NEVER seen a single recording have copy protection applied to it. Thus, it seems they had CCI set to 0x00.

    In order to resolve the outage across most of our channels that began on 6/7, I spent an hour on the phone w/them on 6/8 and I had to give them 3 ids on the CableCARD screen. Others who also had to call to get their service restored have reported that apparently their cards are paired.

    Now that we have service back, we're finding CCI set to 0x02 and it's some of the same channels that became inaccessible on 6/7.
     
  12. Jun 13, 2010 #92 of 813
    rifleman69

    rifleman69 Member

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    ESPNU is 0x00, all other ESPN's are 0x02. National Geographic is 0x00, DiscoveryHD is 0x02. There's no rhyme or reason for what they're setting. If they made all of the ESPN's 0x02...that would make some sense as it's an entire channel group as a whole by the same broadcasting company...but it's not.
     
  13. Jun 13, 2010 #93 of 813
    richsadams

    richsadams Well-Known Member

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    I understand that, but my understanding is also that the CP/encryption cannot be implemented with cable card equipment unless the cable cards are paired/bound to the equipment. VZ had never paired their cable cards (making everything coming from their FIOS distribution system 0x00) until now and then only in the three states that suffered the outage on 6/7 and then on only what appear to be arbitrary channels.
     
  14. Jun 13, 2010 #94 of 813
    richsadams

    richsadams Well-Known Member

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    A TCF member arranged a three-way call w/VZ and TiVo today. The VZ network tech said that what he and other TiVo owners were experiencing (CP on various channels and the inability to use MRV) was not right to his knowledge. The TCF member received ticket number(s) and the VZ tech is to call back with a progress report (no time frame). So of course there are no guarantees, but perhaps something will be done to correct the error...and hopefully before the Frontier takeover.
     
  15. Jun 13, 2010 #95 of 813
    cwerdna

    cwerdna Proud Tivolutionary

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    Thank you for your work and to whoever the TCF member was. I didn't have time to call TiVo before they closed today.
     
  16. Jun 13, 2010 #96 of 813
    vurbano

    vurbano Member

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    Not overstating anything. I can do that without a 1500 dollar investment in a Tivos and Lifetime service. If it comes to that you are better off with the FIOS DVR media center solution. For me no MRV and no transfer to PC means no Tivo. It turns a caddillac into a Yugo. Don't get me wrong, I would probably keep one around and hack it to transfer shows I want to keep but it would not be the backbone of a whole house system. I had been considering buying a 3rd one but this has me worried.
     
  17. Jun 13, 2010 #97 of 813
    killzone

    killzone New Member

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    There are ways Tivo could deal with this besides the best solution which is streaming (yeah I know the S3 and HD aren't powerful enough). For a transfer to another Tivo hey should allow the decryption, transfer and reencryption, or perhaps when a household has more than 1 Tivo tied to an account, they should all use the same encryption key. Treat both units as 1 even though they are physically distinct. These are details that the consumer shouldn't have to worry about. It should just work.
     
  18. Jun 13, 2010 #98 of 813
    MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    trust me- having had flagged channels to some degree or another since the week the S3 came out- and have changed for better or worse over time.- i totally get that you guys have something taken away. I agree they have changed terms and so you guys should get EFT's waived if the transfer included such provisions that nothing should change.

    But I'm trying to explain to you that the cable people AND the regulators are idiots. Those of us who have been complaining to our cable companies and regulators for years have gotten no where as a general rule. The regulators dont understand the issues or dont care to try or dont have the power- you see the answers cable gives above when you even mention the flags. There's times when they flag cable in the classroom content- clearly content that isn't intended to be flagged- yet you can't get any headway.

    maybe things are better with regulators in the northwest but certainly things aren't as simple as we would like in my neck of the woods.

    good luck but as i said above I wouldn't bet it will be so simple. Maybe you'll get the EFT waived- but good luck getting through the 10 layers of people till you can find someone who understands what you are talking about and what has changed.

    Just trying to inject some real world experience to what you folks might expect.
     
  19. Jun 13, 2010 #99 of 813
    richsadams

    richsadams Well-Known Member

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    All good points...and understood. :up: To get back on this thread's original topic, in "our" (VZ FIOS customers in OR, WA and IN) case we think what happened is likely a mistake that occurred when VZ's network techs rectified an outage that hit our three states. We hope that they can resolve it and soon.

    There are several scenarios I can think of where it could remain, get worse or get better. On July 1 Frontier will take over a majority of VZ's FIOS and other systems in these three and other states. Frontier's position is that they will continue to deliver whatever VZ had as of June 30th. We've already witnessed VZ dropping numerous channels and now this so it's possible VZ is positioning their service to meet Frontier's requirements.

    So this may have been an attempt to pair our cable cards and add CP to the appropriate channels and it went very wrong (outage, improper pairing, etc.). and they halted the work to assess damage and go forward plans.

    It could remain because VZ is leaving and will leave it up the the next "administration" to clean up their mess. As Frontier has no experience in this field I don't have high hopes that they'd do well.

    It could get slightly worse if in this case it is their (Frontier's) intent to CP premium channels, or it could get much worse if their intent is to CP everything.

    It could certainly get better if VZ returns things to they way they were before and life will go on. Fingers crossed and so on.

    So this will be a wait-and-see. Hopefully common sense and subsequent technical support will prevail, but you're right...it could turn out to be that no one really cares. If that's the case OTA, Netflix, Boxee, etc. are beginning to look like viable options IMO.

    BTW, customers being sold to Frontier will be able to switch/drop FIOS without an ET fee per VZ's current agreement if they (VZ) ends service delivery.
     
  20. bicker

    bicker bUU

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    That would be a violation of the the license that TiVo was granted.

    However, the expectations you're imposing aren't things that TiVo is allowed to do for you.
     

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