Elite Hard Drive: can the JMFS software copy it ?

Discussion in 'TiVo Upgrade Center' started by lessd, Nov 30, 2011.

  1. lessd

    lessd Well-Known Member

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    If one gets the TiVo Elite can one use the JMFS TP upgrade software to make a working copy of the original Elite Hard Drive so when the Hard Drive goes one would have the means to fix the Elite without sending it out to someone ??
     
  2. Soapm

    Soapm Active Member

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    You can but it would be the size of the drive. So a 2TB drive will have a 2TB backup image.

    I don't think you can make a truncated image for premiers at this time...
     
  3. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    Since you can't make a truncated image backup of the S4s, and have to basically Xerox the drive onto another of the same size (or larger), don't bother with jmfs, just boot with the MFS Live cd v1.4 and

    dd_rescue -v /dev/sda /dev/sdb

    assuming, of course that your source is sda and your target is sdb

    The

    -v

    is so that you can see what's going on.

    After a while the screen will blank, just hit the spacebar to bring it back up.

    It'll probably be quicker than jmfs, but it'll still take forever.

    Does the Elite have a 2TB drive?

    You can dd_rescue onto a larger drive which you may not be actually able to use in the TiVo (for one thing it'll have the partition map of the smaller drive and I don't know if that will cause confusion or not), but you can then dd_rescue back onto a drive with the same LBA number as the original source and everything will land in the right place before it says out of room on the target drive, so a 2TB Xeroxed to a 2.5TB or 3TB will be a non-swappable backup.
     
  4. lessd

    lessd Well-Known Member

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    I know you can use the dd method but what i wanted to know is if the JMFS TP upgrade software that I already have can be used to dup the drive, not to make it bigger just to have something to fix the Elite years down the road if and when the Elite Hard Drive goes bad (and I can't remember the dd command), I know that i would have to purchase a 2Gb drive and not use it, when the price comes back down to the $70 or so range I think it would be good insurance to have for the Elite that cost close to $1000 with Lifetime service.
     
  5. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    The current version of jmfs (1.04 or 104) does have a copy option separate from the expand option, but I don't know if it, like Instant Cake, will balk if it isn't going onto a target drive that's larger than the source drive, whereas dd_rescue, available on the MFS Live cd v1.4, of which everyone should have a copy even if they don't own a TiVo, will do it without knowing or caring that it's working from a TiVo drive, it just copies bytes.

    If you go from a source drive to a target drive with the same LBA number it gives you an exact Xerox. If you go to a larger drive you can go from that to a third drive with the same LBA number as the first drive, and it'll be the same as if you copied straight from the first drive to the third.

    This is not a good time to have to spend (a lot of ) money on a hard drive, but the only way to back up a Premiere or Elite or any of the other variations of the Series 4 TiVo hard drives is to make a full size copy, and to the best of my knowledge I've told you the fastest way to do it. (MFS Live--dd_rescue)

    If jmfs can, and will, do it, it'll take at least as long and probably longer, based on my experience with it so far.
     
  6. lillevig

    lillevig Cold in East Iowa

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    Interesting. Have you ever used dd_rescue to clone a Windows drive? I currently use Clonezilla to make cloned backups of my various PCs and I suspect that it runs something similar to or exactly like the dd command. I'm not a Linux guy so most of what scrolls by doesn't register.
     
  7. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    More times than I can remember.

    I've used it recently to park a 200GB drive on a 1TB drive so that I could temporarily use the 200 for something else, then copied back off of the 1TB onto the 200, and since the partion table and MBR were all part of what got copied, the 200 has no idea anything's changed.

    As I said, it copies bytes and has no idea what, if anything, is on them.
     
  8. Soapm

    Soapm Active Member

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    Why clone a windows drive???

    I never keep anything I want on the same partition as the OS this way of the OS has to be wiped all my other stuff will still be in place. I also have some important files that I keep backed up to a sandisk. I have a piece of software that backs up those directories nightly...

    Buying a drive just to close a drive is like buying insurance on your insurance. Using my method I have files that originated on my old win 3.1 machine.
     
  9. lillevig

    lillevig Cold in East Iowa

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    We all do what we feel most comfortable doing. In my case, my drives are only 500GB, 320GB, and 160GB so having exact duplicate drives really isn't wasting a lot of hardware. It's especially good for my desktop (500GB) because I could just swap out one drive for the other since they are identical hardware. Through the years I have used everything from floppies to digital tape to Zip drives to CDs and DVDs for backups. Call it laziness or call it paranoia, cloning the drive is what I've settled on after a couple of decades of owning PCs.
     
  10. Soapm

    Soapm Active Member

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    Sorry if I sounded condescending. That wasn't my intent.

    I agree to each his own but I was pointing out that saving the files and not the applications really saves a lot of archive space.

    Just curious, how do you keep the clones updates with recent files?

    I ask that because there is a process called mirroring where two drives will have the same content which means if one fails the other is up to date...
     
  11. lessd

    lessd Well-Known Member

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    I like backing up my total Windows drive, so if i have any problem I can restore the total drive in 15 minutes or so with all files and settings and not have to load Windows and programs again, I use Farstone Drive Clone Pro, that may work on a TiVo disk for a total copy, but i never tried to do that.

    What I wanted to know is if anybody has backed up the Elite Hard Drive using the JMFS upgrade system and tested that the backup works in the Elite, everything else is only speculation as to what will or will not work on the TiVo Elite. I don't want to purchase one unless I know for sure that it can be backup using the JMFS, as i don't have to remember anything using that software.
     
  12. Soapm

    Soapm Active Member

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    jfms doesn't back up per se... it makes a copy. Yes, I have copied images to one drive to another many times using jfms and as long as it recognizes the drive it does just fine. Takes a while but does fine.
     
  13. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    jmfs takes forever compared to dd_rescue and I would only use it if I were going onto a larger drive and didn't want the partition map of the smaller drive retained, in other words if my next step was to expand.
     
  14. lillevig

    lillevig Cold in East Iowa

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    That brings up another question: Could you do the fast copy with dd_rescue and then just run JMFS to do the expansion?
     
  15. lillevig

    lillevig Cold in East Iowa

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    Cloning is for recovery from a catastrophic failure like a drive crash or a really bad virus. I don't have that many individual file updates that I worry about so an occasional backup of My Documents is about all I need to do. Mirroring won't necessarily protect against power line surges or viruses. My desktop used to be setup for RAID but I decided that was false security and a waste of resources.
     
  16. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    In the recent case where I went from the stock 160 to a 1TB, upping the swap partition size and using WinMFS to expand so as to not wind up with an Apple Free partition at the end, when I went to go from the 1TB to a 2TB, I could have copied via dd_rescue and not had a 1TB Apple Free Partition because the 2TB would have had the partition map of the 1TB, since dd_rescue just blindly copies bytes without taking notice of what they are, but I don't know if then running jmfs to expand into that second TB on the 2TB drive would have failed because of jmfs choking on that 1TB partition map on the 2TB or not, and I didn't want to keep experimenting, I wanted to get that S3 HD up and running on the 2TB drive.

    If someone wants to send me another S3 HD, I've still got the 1TB not re-used yet, and another 2TB drive, so I could try it and see.

    There's a $25 HD on the Rochester Craigslist, but I haven't heard back from them (and probably won't).
     
  17. lessd

    lessd Well-Known Member

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    I done that also with the TP many times myself, I just leave it for the night, don't care how long it takes. My question is this: will that copy process work on the Elite, will the JMFS software recognize the TiVo Elite hard drive, does anyone know for sure that it does?
     
  18. unitron

    unitron Well-Known Member

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    If the Elite, like the previous S4s, can't use a drive larger than 2TB, regardless of how much of it is actually used or what the partition map claims, your question may be intellectually interesting but otherwise pointless.

    The Elite comes with a 2TB drive, doesn't it?

    Like other S4s, I assume the only way to back it up is to clone/Xerox it, which means another 2TB drive, unless you use one of the dd programs to copy it to a larger than 2TB drive with the intention of dd-ing back to a 2TB if ever necessary.

    If you're doing that, just using jmfs to make a clone/Xerox is just doing it the time-consuming way.

    If the Elite can actually recognize, on the level below software, a 2.5 or 3TB drive, then it's a different story, although whether jmfs can recognize an Elite drive as a TiVo drive is one question, whether it can copy it to another 2TB drive is another question, whether it can copy it to a larger than 2TB drive yet another question, whether it can copy it to a larger than 2TB drive and then expand it is really the question that makes any of this of any interest, and, if not, then whether you can dd to a larger than 2TB drive and then somehow trick jmfs into expanding that becomes of interest.

    I think the only way we're going to find out involves you buying an Elite, a spare 2TB drive, a 2.5TB drive, and a 3TB drive, and spending a lot of time experimenting.

    You've got lots of spare time and money, right?:D
     
  19. Soapm

    Soapm Active Member

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    I don't know for sure about the Elite but it recognizes both my TivoHD and Premier (not THX). I would think the file system is the same as the Premier so my gut says yes it should recognize it but I don't know it as fact...
     
  20. lessd

    lessd Well-Known Member

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    You are misunderstand me, I don't care about expanding the drive in the Elite, I just want a copy so when the drive goes bad (and it will someday) I don't have to depend on anybody for me to get it working again. I know I will be tying up a 2Tb hard drive for some years but for me that cheap insurance. (When the 2TB drives gets back down to $70 or so.)
     

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