Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by davezatz, Jan 5, 2006.
That's pretty funny stuff. I'm finally dumping Dish (though I've been very happy with their service overall) because their DVR choices are either sucky or EXPENSIVE. I just called them the other day giving them the ability to "save a customer" -- told them Cable was courting me with a free TiVo promotion and HD DVR set-top box for no upfront fees... what could Dish do for me? NOTHING, they wanted $799 for their HD DVR set-top box.
Tomorrow Cablevision comes to install.
That's because they'd lose you anyway. They don't have the boxes in stock to send you. When they become common I bet they'll price match.
The first time I called (before I was thinking about Cable) they didn't have them in stock but said they had had them recently. The second time I called they seemed all ready to sell me one for $799 (at least that's how she sounded). They could have at least TRIED and said something like "we'll have them in stock soon, and we'd be willing to send you a coupon for XX off"... try they did not.
I KNOW they wouldn't have matched the price. What she said was something like "the $799 is our promotion price... you're getting a special deal already. If you want the 942 you have to buy it".
THey would absolutely not compete with a lease-by-month (or even free-by-month which is what I get with the cable package I got).
Charlie also claimed that Dish had a PVR before Tivo, which I didn't think was correct.
Not sure why he couldn't have just said "No Comment".
Not a great CES for poor Dish. Murdoch came out with several good punches.
Dish had DishPlayers in retail stores before TiVo did. Of course original DishPlayer had Microsoft software and TiVo did announce first shipment about 2 weeks before Replay, but I'm not sure on timing of DishPlayer shipping announcement. Dish also had first satellite DVR way before DirecTiVo was introduced. I would think that Charlie has some documentation that DishPlayer was designed before TiVo applied for a patent, but I'm not sure that he can prove that Dish was first to the market.
There was a news article I spotted saying that a current CES rumor is that EchoStar may be an acquisition target of the new AT&T (formerly SBC).
SBC has been marketing Dish services for a while -- they offer a "bundle" where you can get local service, LD, cellular, DSL, and Dish in one package. Since they now have the old AT&T's LD and IP networks, they may see this as a way to get the video stuff in-house.
Edit: here's the article.
All of us who read this forum are familiar with Tivo's "Blue Moon Holiday" commemorating the first shipment of tivo's going out for consumer sales on March 31, 1999. (search for "tivo "blue moon"" on goggle)
Dishnetwork shipped their first dishplayer that could pause and rewind live tv on or around May 30, 1999 to be on the store shelves for June sales, but it was not until December 1999 that it was upgraded to be able to record.
(The Internet Way-Back Machine (archive.org) tells us that the DirecTivo was first officially announced on January 6, 2000, of course)
Knowing that, I'm pretty sure that Charlie cannot really claim that the Dishplayer was first dvr to the market.
Unless you count the Intergrated JVC D-VHS VCR with Built-In Dishnetwork Receiver!
It WAS digital, right?
First-to-market means absolutely nothing. The "time warping" patent was filed in July, 1998. And I'm pretty sure they are only challenging certain Dishnetwork models, not all their DVRs, as it's not a very broad patent.
First-to-market means absolutely nothing, first-to-patent means absolutely everything.
Mr Ergan's "We were doing DVR long before they did" statement in the thread's linked article sparked the first-to-market discussion.
As far as "it's not a very broad patent", there seems to be many who would disagree with you. (google)
I'm certainly not a patent attorney, but here is the complaint and the patent in question.
Reading the text of the patent I would have thought (as a layman) that it's a pretty clear cut infringement.
What I don't understand is why are they only after E*? Surely the same argument applies to all the DVRs.
One at a time, please. A victory here makes the next one that much easier.
hmm, wonder why they started with a satellite provider
There was a recent interview of the NDS team head who did the software UI DirecTv DVR. His comment was that "some consumers want the DVR to stop where you released the button". Of course it was a fib. No One is capable of such Microsecond response times to detect end of commercial and release FF button. He continued with "but some people want their DVRs to read their minds".
What he was really saying was. "Gee, you know- Tivo has a really cool feature there, it really is like the Tivo is reading your mind. And since polling tells us that is the number one most listed reason consumers give for getting a DVR, it looks like Tivo has a very valuable patent there. Unfortunately, my Boss Mr. Rupert Murdoch thinks we can get along without it, or that we can buffalo Tivo, so we will just have to put the best face on things.... er ahem...." "What I really meant to say was, that it is naive for conusmers to expect that machines can read minds, it stops when you release the FF button. Next question."
1) They have an "IN" with cableco's since they have cablecards- a settlement wouldn't get them any access- which is the gold they are after- not money.
2) You prove the patent value on the first case. So pick it wisely- choose the best instance of flagrant infringement. After winning the first, the others fall into line, or not depending on the percieved strength or weaknesses revealed in the first case.
At the time of the filing, Tivo was allied with DirecTv. In current thicket, it's still a good tack, and allowing the delay of the hearing date because it gives time to drive home the court's stern indication of their incliniation in the matter. Dish is going to lose, and they better start thinking about a settlement. Tivo has always said it prefers to keep things out of the courts and would LOVE to be the only one in town making the DVR for DISH, even if it only worked with DISH. (Which situation by the way might suggest to some cynical observers that I would reverse myself on the need for a "satellite cablecard" standard established by FCC regulation- but actually I will not. I feel that this would provide a fair and level playing field and be in the consumers best interests.)
But the DISH CEO isn't going to negotiate by press release, all of that will be between him and Rogers, and their boards- with a bevy of lawyers and engineers from each company in the peanut gallery. Pretty private affair and it is pretty darn sensitive especiall if the Dish CEO actually is entertaining buyout propositions as rumored concerning AT&T etc. The outcome of the suit (penalties, or some onerous long term partnership with TIvo) could strongly affect a buyers interest in Dish.
So it's all stiff upper lip in public- what he discusses in private inside Echo may be quite the opposite.
Let's not leave out the best part. Ergen then went on to say:
Long before huh? What a moron!
Ok in one sentence you say Tivo has patent on this technology then you say the rupert thinks it's not worth it. Hmmm sounds like if they did they would get sued for patent infringement. Last time I checked getting sued for things like that is BAD.
btw, here's Echostar's patent:
I haven't read both in their entirety, but Echostar's patent was filed: June 4, 1996 (#5,774,186) and TiVos on July 30, 1998 (#6,233,389)
This is exactly my recollection of the events. TiVo started taking internet orders sometime in April, but I wanted to buy from retail store to make sure I'm going to like it. I was checking B&M stores for TiVo or Replay but first ones to hit the shelves were DishPlayers. It wasn't till September that first TiVo showed up in my local Sears (and guess who bought it ). That chain of events tells me that Microsoft and Dish had DVR on drawing boards well before TiVo patent was filed (there is no way that two huge companies can release joint product for completely new device in less than 2 years). Dish may even have contracts with Microsoft to develop DVR dated before TiVo was founded as a company. I have no idea how patent law works in this kind of situation, but this law suit is probably most critical event for TiVo. If they lose it, they would have to close the doors; if they win they could become Gemstar of DVRs - suing and winning or settling with everybody.