Dollhouse "Epitaph Two: Return" (1/29/2010, Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by LoadStar, Jan 29, 2010.

  1. Jan 29, 2010 #1 of 117

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

    Jul 24, 2001
    Milwaukee, WI


    That was good. That was REALLY good. I can't believe it's over... that went way too quickly, but yet, it felt like it was paced exactly right.

    There were definitely parts that I wish we knew more about... like what happened that turned Alpha into a softie and everyone's best friend, or why exactly Topher's little device had to be set off manually. Otherwise, it was perfect... and unusually for Joss, even with Ballard and Topher both dying, I think that would be considered "happily ever after."

    Man, I want an Epitaph Three... and Four.. and Five... and... :(
  2. Jan 29, 2010 #2 of 117

    TampaThunder Well-Known Member

    Apr 8, 2003
    Tampa, FL
    THAT was a series finale!

    This show will be sorely missed. Not much love for those that missed Epitaph One. You really, really need to see One for Two to make complete sense.
  3. Jan 29, 2010 #3 of 117

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

    Jul 24, 2001
    Milwaukee, WI
    Agreed. They didn't bother to even try and fill in the audience on what happened previously, who "Mag" and "Zone" were, why Caroline is in an 8 year old's body, or any of that stuff... granted, I wouldn't have wanted them to try and do some sort of a half-assed "here's what happened" recap and take up valuable time.

    What would have been nice is if they would've shown both Epitaph One and Two together as a sort of TV movie... but not only does Fox not own Epitaph One, but I do understand that Fox wouldn't want to waste any additional time on this ratings black hole. Unfortunately. :(
  4. Jan 29, 2010 #4 of 117

    caslu Active Member

    Jun 24, 2003
    A more than satisfying ending to a show that was only sporadically satisfying over its 2-season run. It did get much better and I also find myself wishing there would be an Epitaph 3, 4, etc...
  5. Jan 29, 2010 #5 of 117

    Test Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2004


    Very good series finale.

    Did anyone else get the feeling they were going for the same Terminator:scc affect with Ballard? The quick death and no time to acknowledge it until later. I only say that because these are really the only two times I can remember seeing that and Dushku didn't pull it off as well.
  6. Jan 29, 2010 #6 of 117

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

    Jul 24, 2001
    Milwaukee, WI
    Reminded me more of Serenity. It was almost the same as what happened there.
  7. Jan 30, 2010 #7 of 117

    TivoFan Member

    Feb 22, 2000
    Northampton, MA
    First of all, I love the show. I think this was probably the best way to end it.

    But here are the problems for me.... okay, so they reset everyone back to normal. What is to stop from all the people who were broadcasting the "butcher signals" and "numbshow signals" from re-infecting everyone?

    And I'm sorry, but taking out the group of numbshow's before the anti-butcher signal was set off was just a bloodbath waiting to happen. They had even made a comment before about all the butchers hanging around the building because it was a numbshow buffet. So they sent out twenty nulls with two guards? What?!?!

    And wasn't Ballards imprint the one that was left from when they had to recreate him. Specifically the one where he lost his feelings for Echo/Caroline? So it wouldn't have been a romantic happily ever after.

    I can't really buy into the happily ever after anyway, even if it had been a current imprint. The imprints aren't the same thing as the original people. It's just a construct of memories and behaviors. The new imprinted you just isn't the same person as the original. Just ask Clyde. If Clyde 2.0, which kept getting copied into new bodies, were the same person, he shouldn't have minded being stuck in the attic. Putting an imprint into a new person probably seems great to the new imprint (after all they have a sense of continuity with their original self, and they're the version that gets to stick around) but from the original's point of view it has to be horrible (after all, what happens to the original with his old worn out body when this new doppleganger takes over and shoves him out of the way?) So Echo isn't getting the real Ballard, just a really good imitation of him. Almost like having a really great memory of what he was like, and being able to guess what he would have said or done. But just memories, not a real person. I just don't see it being a fulfilling experience.
  8. Jan 30, 2010 #8 of 117

    laria Librocubicularist

    Sep 7, 2000
    Seacoast, NH
    They did do a half-assed recap at the start. :)
  9. Jan 30, 2010 #9 of 117

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

    Jul 24, 2001
    Milwaukee, WI
    Yeah, I rewatched the episode and saw it.. it was so brief and useless, I didn't even notice it the first time through. :)
  10. Jan 30, 2010 #10 of 117

    deronj New Member

    Sep 28, 2001
    I watched about 3 minutes of Epitaph Two and thought to myself "did I miss an episode?" Went online and found the unaired Epitaph One on Amazon VOD and watched it first. As others have mentioned, Two would have been confusing without seeing One.

    I liked the episode. Only one complaint: ten years struggling to survive and no one looked like they aged any.
  11. Jan 30, 2010 #11 of 117

    vertigo235 Well-Known Member TCF Club

    Oct 27, 2000
    Well that's not completly true. Echo did have a few strands of gray hair.
  12. Jan 30, 2010 #12 of 117

    jlb Go Pats!

    Dec 13, 2001
    Burlington, VT
    I was generally happy. I agree you absolutely need to see E1 first to truly understand E2. I really wish we could have had more leading up to E1/2, but alas, one final BIH Fox.

    On Fox25 in Boston, the very last few seconds got cutoff and went right to the Mutant Enemy logo. Was that the same everywhere?
  13. Jan 30, 2010 #13 of 117
    Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    Oct 17, 2000
    I'm not sure whether it got cut off, or if it just ended too abruptly on purpose. If the latter, it was a nifty subtle dig at Fox!
  14. Jan 30, 2010 #14 of 117

    Peter000 Well-Known Member TCF Club

    Apr 15, 2002
    Red Wing, MN
    Thought this was an awesome ending to the series. VERY satisfied.
  15. Jan 30, 2010 #15 of 117

    Anubys All About Footwork

    Jul 16, 2004
    one more nit: why did they need Mag and Zone? are we really to believe they didn't know the way back to the Dollhouse?
  16. Jan 30, 2010 #16 of 117

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

    Jul 24, 2001
    Milwaukee, WI
    More likely, they needed Mag and Zone to point out where the hot spots were, where the butchers had setup camp.
  17. Jan 30, 2010 #17 of 117
    Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Grey Warden Reject

    Dec 26, 2001
    A City by...
    I thought Alpha's line about schizophrenia and the voices in his head was quite amusing. I don't remember the exact line but I did laugh aloud at that.

    I also wondered what changed Alpha's tune and frankly where did he come from? Was he always there?
  18. Jan 30, 2010 #18 of 117

    ahartman Space for Rent

    Dec 28, 2001
    Cleveland, OH
    Wow, I thought it was laughable and terrible at the same time. I didn't see E1, but I can't imagine what would've been in it that would've made E2 any better.

    Did they intentionally find an actress that was as unattractive and as irritating (and as bad an actor) as Chloe on 24?

    Like others, I just don't see how the ending changed anything - the bad guys will revert back to... um, bad guys? Everyone else gets to live in what appears to be a wasteland?

    Can't say I'm sorry to see this one end.
  19. Jan 30, 2010 #19 of 117

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

    Jul 24, 2001
    Milwaukee, WI
    You missed the part where those who wanted to stay "active" would have to stay underground for almost a year, because the effects of Topher's "wave" would continue to be effective for that long. By conclusion, then, the wave would "nullify" the remote wipe signals as soon as they are used. It'd be like trying to start a fire in a vacuum - as soon as you start a spark, it goes out because there's no air to sustain the flame. Here, if they sent out the signal, it would "go out" right away. Yes, in a year or so they might be able to try again... but I would imagine by then a rather pissed-off public would have sought out and found anyone involved in Rossum.

    It was "dumbshow," I'm pretty sure.... and it looked like the butchers were most active at night. When they went out, there was absolutely no one in eyesight. Besides, they only had to be outside for a few moments, until Topher set off the device. Even if they had deliberately looked out of the building, waited until there were a bunch of butchers right there, they STILL could have held them off for those few moments with a couple of guards.

    Clyde 2.0 was almost certainly an "enhanced" version of the original, sort of like how Topher gave Tony (Victor) enhanced abilities, but otherwise was mostly the same. Clyde, in his ignorance, probably enhanced stuff like his ambition and self-confidence, which ended up coming back to bite him in the butt when his 2.0 ended up being more ambitious than the original, ambitious enough to throw "himself" into the attic. It might have even been Boyd that tweaked the Clyde personality before it got put into 2.0.

    A wedge in the Dollhouse universe contains everything that makes up a person - essential memories, abilities, personality, etc. When Echo downloaded the Ballard wedge into herself, she was able to integrate all of those aspects into herself... it's not like she was attempting to keep him distinct, because by this point, Echo no longer has unique personalities (unless she calls one forward, which she doesn't seem to do anymore.) They're all just aspects of herself. And from that, you're right... she was just integrating Ballard into herself.

    But from there I disagree with you. A wedge is so detailed that by uploading him into herself (wow, that sounds rather dirty) it's almost as if he's still around, and I think if you talk to many who have lost someone very close to them, that sort of thing could be a huge comfort.
  20. Jan 30, 2010 #20 of 117

    LoadStar LOAD"*",8,1

    Jul 24, 2001
    Milwaukee, WI
    Are you seriously talking about Felicia Day ("Mag" in this episode)? :eek:

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