Doctor Who - S12 E10 - "The Timeless Children" - 03/02/2020

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by kdmorse, Mar 3, 2020.

  1. Mar 3, 2020 #1 of 32
    kdmorse

    kdmorse Well-Known Member TCF Club

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    .... including discussion about S12 E09 "Ascension of the Cybermen", as nobody every got around to creating a thread for Part 1 of the two parter that closed out the series.

    Sufficed to say, I have mixed feelings. On the upside, the last two episodes actually had plots, enemies, characters, connections to existing lore, resolutions that took longer than your average sneeze, and an actual sense of impending doom. And given all the revelations in them, they probably merit rewatching.

    On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure how I feel about rewriting both the entire history of the Time Lord race, and the entire Doctor's genesis and existence. And while we know the Time Lords *do* interfere from time to time (historically by hijacking the Doctor and throwing him at a budding enemy), this new notion of a secret program of temporal manipulation somehow seemed out of place. Apparently the Doctor has had infinite regeneration (Making the whole running out at 12, and the granting of a new set by the Time Lords at the end of the 11th run now moot?).
    Rec-conning so much of sixty years of history, it just feels wrong somehow... But I'll roll with it.

    Honestly, it feels like the current crew does want to do episodes with a broader arc, but don't want it to actually involve any past lore, so they're rewriting the lore all at once so they can do a broader arc that only touches on the backstory they just rewrote. Only time will tell.

    And I know there are only so many plot points in the world. But did we have to do a Cyberman/Time Lord Hybrid, having already done a Dalek/Time Lord Hybird? And did we really have to hide in a Cyberman to escape, after having hidden in a Dalek to escape?

    Only time will tell how this plays out. (Err, how much time - how long is the gap between seasons this time?)
     
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  2. Mar 3, 2020 #2 of 32
    Shakhari

    Shakhari Well-Known Member

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    This pretty much sums up my take on this.

    Even if it turns out to be the actual history of the Time Lords, what about it is so devastating that the Master found it necessary to destroy Gallifrey? Why did he think it would break the Doctor? The Doctor had thought for three regenerations that he had destroyed Gallifrey during the Time War and had lived with it.
     
  3. Mar 3, 2020 #3 of 32
    cheesesteak

    cheesesteak Meh. TCF Club

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    Did we ever know the back story of the Time Lords?

    This episode crystallized what I dislike about having three companions. I like all three of them but I don't need an A story, a B story and a C story. The A story is the Doctor. The B and C stories happen when the companions inevitably get separated into twp groups with random redshirts that I don't really care about at all. I want more A story.

    I like Doctor Ruth's outfit more than I like the Doctor's.

    I don't particularly like this Master and I wonder why the modern stories have to portray him as a maniacal clown instead of straight up evil like the old Masters. Plus, I noticed that he was wearing high waters in this episode. I expect that out of PeeWee Herman, not a planet killer.

    I didn't really understand the segment when the men were deprogramming the police officer who had regenerated. Who were those men and why was that Doctor being deprogrammed?
     
  4. Mar 3, 2020 #4 of 32
    TonyD79

    TonyD79 Well-Known Member

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    The Master said what bothered him about it. That his very existence is owed to the Doctor. He is that petty.

    As for retconning the history. They didn’t. Nothing since 1963 was changed. As for the history of the time lords, nothing changed. Chronos and Rassilon are still who they were (invented time travel and Rassilon was the first President). The regeneration ability of the time lords was never attributed before so it isn’t a change but an addition.

    So, the Doctor was the Timeless Child. But the Doctor is still the Doctor. The regeneration that created the “first” Doctor was more of a reboot. He started as a baby and grew up on Gallifrey with the Master then stole a TARDIS as an old man, etc, etc, etc. the Doctor was the timeless child but the timeless child isn’t the Doctor.

    And yet, the Doctor still has two hearts, etc. which means either the time lords recreated him or the timeless child was actually from gallifrey.
     
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  5. Mar 3, 2020 #5 of 32
    Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    I've been saying that since Simm's first appearance (although Missy was much improved).
    I'm probably working too hard to help them out (;)), but maybe the things that make Time Lords Time Lords are the result of the regeneration process and not their original genetics?
     
  6. Mar 3, 2020 #6 of 32
    morac

    morac Cat God TCF Club

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    I’m kind of okay with the history rewrite as it seems like they’ve done that a lot over the years, though not to this extent. I did consider it made the whole 12 regenerations thing for the Doctor moot, but if they somehow regressed the Doctor to a child (has that ever happened before?), it makes sense that they could add the restriction.

    I’m confused how did they (or the Master) even get to Gallifrey? Wasn’t the last time we saw it, it was time locked in the time war in another dimension?

    Also if the “death particle” was supposed to wipe out all life in the universe, how did it go to simply just blowing up the citadel?

    Finally how can the Judson teleport inside the TARDIS when nothing should be able to get inside. Though I did like the callback to the “what? What? WHAT?” Tennant endings.

    It looks like they’ve ditched the companions, though without a “goodbye”, I guess they’ll be back. Seems like shorter Doctor Who seasons with a long break are now the norm. Nothing new for 8 months. That’s the opposite of what most shows are doing in the US.
     
  7. Mar 3, 2020 #7 of 32
    mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Well-Known Member

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    Ellicott...
    I don't recall ever seeing much in the way of the history of the Time Lords or much of a back story about the doctor when he/she was young, and I've seen every episode of Doctor Who since the early 60's. I'm surprised the writers haven't delved this deep into the Doctor's past previously. It's a mystery yet to be unraveled for the fans. As for the Master, the Doctor's personality changes with every regeneration so why not the Master's as well? Coming back in a new body over and over again has to affect you mentally at some point, not to mention switching genders.

    Let's face it, previous Doctors have had very little in the way of fashion sense so why would this one be any different? OTOH, the new batch of Doctors in the rebooted series have dressed less flamboyantly than the ones from the original series. William Hartnell and Patrick Troughton dressed fairly normal, but then John Pertwee dressed like a Dandy with the ruffled shirt (Seinfeld and the puffy shirt anyone?) and they went off the rails after that.

    On another note, there's a show with recurring character in a bar that sits in the background and is dressed just like Tom Baker as Doctor Who. I believe it's Toast of London with Matt Berry. He never interacts with anyone on the show or has any lines so I think he's just an Easter Egg for Doctor Who fans.
     
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  8. Mar 3, 2020 #8 of 32
    ehusen

    ehusen Geek not Nerd

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    Sigh, I hate to complain but.... (I know, I know...)

    I've always really enjoyed Dr. Who both the new and the old (which I used to watch on PBS on Sunday nights as a kid. :) )

    But I think this last iteration has got me wondering if I shouldn't bother anymore.

    I'm okay with a female Doctor and the actress does as well as she can with the material. But I really think the writing has declined. I just don't feel any emotion while watching the show now.

    The guy playing the Master is atrocious. He's a nutty whiny child and not the least menacing. Missy was charming even when she disintegrated you. This new guy is not.

    I feel like the writers all got together and said: "I know, let's have a woman doctor. That will be edgy and cool and 'woke'". Then they forgot to actually make good stories. Then they panicked and sort of just ret-conned/added a bunch of new history cause that will make it better.

    I too thought that Dr. Ruth would have been a more interesting character to explore.

    I don't know, maybe it's time to move on... I think at this point I only keep watching cause it is only 8 episodes every 1+ years...
     
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  9. Mar 3, 2020 #9 of 32
    Tony_T

    Tony_T Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking this was the only reason for the backstory.
     
  10. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Well-Known Member

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    The lead cyber man said destroy life in the universe. Then someone said destroy life on a planet. Maybe after it shrunk.

    But the explosion wasn’t from the death particle. It was from the explosive device that released it.
     
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  11. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Maybe they need to take it from planet to planet..?
     
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  12. Tony_T

    Tony_T Well-Known Member

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    So now the Companions Friends Fam have their own Tardis (and with a working cloaking device — disguised as a house)
     
  13. morac

    morac Cat God TCF Club

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    Funny that you mention that as I’ve taken to calling the people traveling with the Doctor the “diversity companions” as it seems they were only added to make the cast more diverse and not more interesting or fitting to the story. Once each had their token “diversity” episode last season, the writers didn’t seem to know what to do with them.
     
  14. Gunnyman

    Gunnyman Just a boring dude

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    I think my love affair with this show is over. :( I never thought I'd be begging for Moffat to come back but chibnall hasn't done well at all.
     
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  15. TonyD79

    TonyD79 Well-Known Member

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    I’m quite the opposite. The timeless child story worked perfectly for me.
     
  16. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Yeah...I kind of wish they'd started the season with that, so they could have spent the season exploring the ramifications instead of leaving it just sitting there for another year.
     
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  17. GAViewer

    GAViewer Member

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    The thing that got me was that there was not explication of how the Master kill every single Timelord without destroying their bodies, but prevented all of them from regenerating.

    As for re-conning, in the "The Brain of Morbius" 1976, it shows images of the Doctor's four previous incarnations as shown in the show, then shows images of eight previously-unseen faces, which were incarnations preceding the First Doctor of the show.
     
  18. pgogborn

    pgogborn Well-Known Member

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    I would not be suprised if somebody is feeling buyer’s remorse over the Doctor’s outfit and made an extra effort to come up with something better for Doctor Ruth. I did not know what to make of the Master now wearing shortened trousers.
     
  19. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    It suits him.

    Silly clothes for a silly man.
     
  20. Shakhari

    Shakhari Well-Known Member

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    On the diversity front, they certainly made an effort to show the various regenerations of the Child running the gamut, which I guess makes the run of 12 white guys/one white woman seem like the anomaly you would expect.
     

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