Dish Customers

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by plantsower, Aug 25, 2011.

  1. plantsower

    plantsower Member

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    Dec 24, 2003
    CA
    I have satellite TV (Dish Preferred) because there are no cable systems in the boonies here. Anyway, I noticed that Tivo has not been compatible with satellite since the Series 2 (which I am trying to find on eBay at a reasonable price). Does this mean that Dish customers are out of luck as far as Tivo is concerned? If so, didn't they lose a lot of customers because of this? I wonder why it's not satellite capable anymore. Very confused. :confused:

    Rita
     
  2. atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

    6,939
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    Oct 11, 2005
    Rochester NY
    Me thinks you haven't been around for awhile.

    This topic was hashed over (and over, and over) 5 years ago when the first High definition (HD) TiVo (The Series 3 HD) came out.

    Back in the standard definition (SD) TV days a TiVo could record from a set top box's (STB) output. If you still want to do that any Series 2 will work just fine and they cost next to nothing on ebay - get one with lifetime service.

    For HD TV you can not record from a HDMI output you have to have the tuners and security decoding built into the DVR. Dishnetwork simple won't let TiVo build a DVR that works with their HD service. No affordable way for TiVo to get around it.

    Direct TV is supposed to come out with another Direct TiVo next month your can read about it here: http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-08/new-directv-tivo-launches-next-month/
     
  3. plantsower

    plantsower Member

    185
    5
    Dec 24, 2003
    CA
    Oh, wow. Thank you. It just didn't make sense that Tivo would do that. Now I get it. Shame on Dish. Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.
     
  4. Series3Sub

    Series3Sub Well-Known Member

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    Mar 14, 2010
    NO. It is not Dish or any other MVPD/MSO that "prevents" TiVo from recording HD programming. It is HDMI and the threat of copyright owners. There is no big brand brand name HD DVR that allows for ANY inputs (there are only a few that have component input, but they don't count as a true, stand alone major name DVR that is designed to work with the service). This is the case for DirecTV, Dish, Moxi, all the cable manuf. DVR's and, most importantly TiVO. These guys don't want to piss-off the content owners who do everything they can to prevent HD inputs to stand alone DVR's, and they have succeeded as Hauppauge is hardly know to anybody and does not integrate as well as MVPD/MSO provided DVR's. Many features are LOST using a Hauppuge for a significantly inferior experience.

    Further, TiVo or anyone out there can manufacture (Moxi could have if they wanted to) a DVR to function with satellite or IPTV (AT&T) if they chose. The reason they or Moxi and TiVo choose not to was because Dish and DirectTV use slightly different technologies that are NOT compatible, and AT&T is IPTV, with very few subscribers. So manufacturing a box that can play well with satellite and IPTV is just too expensive. The economies just don't work, and both Dish and DirectTV alter or enhance their technologies and the set-top-boxes have to be future proofed, adding more expense to making such a box.

    Instead, TiVo and Moxi are designed to work with Cable TV systems (FiOS uses the CableLabs spec once in the home, hence TiVo is also compatible with FiOS, but as a coincidence, not having been planned that way) because all cable TV systems have the same standard as designed by CableLabs. This means that they can make a box that can play well with any cable TV system in the country and cable still has lots of subscribers. So, the economies work there, but not in satellite or IPTV as one would have to make a box stuffed with hardware AND software for THREE different standards, plus CATV, and this expensive box would have to compete with the DVR's Dish and Direct, are giving away for FREE. A 3rd party making such a box would be out of business very fast.

    Now, TiVo did manufacture a DirecTiVo product for SD and is now close to releasing the new DirecTV for HD, but that takes tremendous planning and expense, mostly paid by DirecTV, to integrate it into DirecTV's system and DirecTV pays fees to TiVo on top of that, so it really isn't a good deal for DirecTV, but DirecTV went along this time ONLY because TiVo agreed in writing NOT to sue DirecTV as it did Echostar. And by the way, there were a lot of old DirecTiVO HD subs who were OUT OF LUCK when DirecTV went to MPEG4. Such is the risk when a 3rd party gets involved.

    Now, from Dish and Charlie's perspective, they've never had a problem with TiVo, they just felt, like many other MVPD's, that they don't want to pay nearly all the costs to develop a compatible product AND pay fees for their service when they already offer their own DVR's that are sufficiently popular and not all that bad (although Dish ViP DVR's are superior to TiVo). It makes NO SENSE, and this is why DirecTV DUMPED TiVo a few years ago, only to have a new agreement ONLY if TiVo would agree NOT to sue DirecTV. It is the MVPD who bears nearly all the costs (Comcast dumped $11 million into the failed effort?) for such a TiVo branded product for their service including R&D, advertising and marketing costs, agree to HOW it is to be marketed and advertised along with license fees all to be paid TO TiVo.

    This is why TiVo has had a really tough time. Only MVPD's with truly crappy DVR's have shown an interest in dealing with TiVo such as Comcast's flirtation with TiVo that just ended because they just couldn't get it to work right--AND Comcast is now loudly trumpeting the new Xfinity, which does blow TiVo out of the water. What a coincidence. TiVo is doing better outside the US at Virgin TV in the UK, which a robust TiVo product for Virgin, UNlike the new DirecTiVo built on the SERIES 3--NOT SERIES 4 PREMIERE-- soon to be released with WEAK legacy features, but DirecTV sure seemed to want it that way.

    So, at heart, TiVo does NOT have inputs on any of its High-Def boxes because content owners prefer it that way and manufacturing an HD DVR product to work with FOUR different technical systems would put the retail price so high, hardly anyone would buy it, especially when customers can get it for free and Dish and DirecTV have better DVR's than many cable cos. offer. So, TiVo follows the economies and that means CATV.
     
  5. atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2005
    Rochester NY
    TiVo can not build stand alone satellite DVRs because the satellite companies received an FCC waiver and were not required to make their encryption software work with cable cards. If they had not received the waiver TiVo could have easily built stand alone satellite HD DVRs.

    No device can legally record from an HDMI output because of HDMI licensing requirements. A DVR can record from a HD Component output. TiVo decided not to go that way - likely due to costs but also because having to use IR Blasters with a STB is not how most people want a DVR to work.
     
  6. swinca

    swinca Menace to society

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    Jun 19, 2003
    Jaw-ja y'all
    My Series 2 is still working just fine with an SD box from Dish on an SD TV. When the SD TV dies, the Tivo is probably history. HD is a whole different story.
     
  7. Series3Sub

    Series3Sub Well-Known Member

    1,465
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    Mar 14, 2010
    Actually, the cable companies did all they could to keep satellite OUT of the CableCard loop. CableCard was deveoped by CableLabs, the Cable Cos. themselves.

    Both DirecTV and Dish stated publicly that the Cable industry was obstructing their attempts to be included for the CableCard spec and even wrote angry letters to Congress complaining of that. Satellite believed what we all believed back then: that CableCard was going to allow consumers to easily plug into and access any MVPD with ease and without having to use industry provided hardware and if you weren't part of CableCard, you weren't going to get the subscribers. Satellite was shut out of CableCard by the Cable Cos. Keep in mind that both DirecTV and Dish Network had 3rd parties sell STB's for their systems, so they weren't opposed to 3rd parties providing an option. In fact, DirecTV's model was ALL 3rd party boxes; Dish's was primarily their own equipment from day one (Phillips and especially JVC designed and sold some very sophisticated equipment to work with Dish under the JVC brand and was the ONLY way to record HD for quite some time), but not opposed to 3rd parties.

    The Cable industry got what they wanted, only CableLabs hardware for the CableCard and assured sabotage for TiVo . Every other piece of consumer electronics--significantly, televisions--and their companies who were pumped up for CableCard, also found themselves rather SHUT OUT! The FCC was (and is) such a pliable, servile nebbish.

    As for nearly 100% of DVR's NOT having ANY inputs of any kind, it isn't related to costs. Content owners and providers make it mandatory if MVPD's want their programming and don't want them to sue and having everything held-up for years. They have LEVERAGE with MVPD's to make this happen, and TiVo has always crawled up the content owners and providers colon from day one, as opposed to Replay TV who got sued and ruined. This is why the 30 second skip was a "hack" and cumbersome to activate because TiVo was that afraid them. Dish always had a 30 second skip, but NEVER mentioned it was for skipping commercials, only that 30 seconds was "Hey! That's the same time as a commercial!" As Leslie smiled a knowing smile at us. Dish did put out a flyer calling the feature a "Commercial Zapper" but quickly pulled it. No one I know of refers to it as a "commercial skip." Officially it is referred to as a "30 second skip." The content providers had to tolerate VCR's being market with "commercial skip" features, but this new-fangled DVR was seen as a massive THREAT, and they didn't want DVR makers using the "C" word.

    The content owners and providers have NO leverage with Hauppauge. They can't threaten to pull programming they don't provide or otherwise disrupt their service they don't provide nor anger subscribers they don't have, and suing Hauppauge won't get them any leverage, and hardly anyone knows about Hauppauge is anyway. So, they save the lawyer fees. It is the DVR's offered by MVPD's and TiVo that the consumer knows and is accessing, not Hauppauge, and so the former was the target.
     
  8. atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2005
    Rochester NY
    You are entitled to your opinions however most of them in this post are not the general consensus of those posting on this forma over the years and I don't agree with most of what you stated.

    As it is highly unlikely that either of us can prove anything so I am going to leave it at that.

    Thanks,
     

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