Dark 3x8 "Paradise"

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by Rob Helmerichs, Jun 27, 2020.

  1. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    53,771
    10,616
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    But Claudia's obsession was with Regina. Not a loop character.
     
  2. Family

    Family Well-Known Member

    1,400
    169
    Jul 23, 2001
    True, but that was the only rational reasonable motivation of all the main characters. Claudia missed Regina's childhood, plus the power plant, which she lied and deceived for, was the cause of her daughter's cancer. That is a real world believable story, unlike whatever was going on with Jonas, Martha, Noah, Agnes etc, and Urich's insane explosions.
     
  3. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    53,771
    10,616
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    Well, it's an interesting notion. But there's just too much general nuttiness going on in their world(s) for me to ultimately buy that it's a result of people looping. I still think there's a broader point being made about people and their obsessions.
     
  4. Family

    Family Well-Known Member

    1,400
    169
    Jul 23, 2001
    The reason I want to believe my take is that so much of the character's motivations made no sense to me, and I want to believe that the show was too good to leave it like Lost.

    It even makes sense. The loop characters thinking was even caught in a loop.
     
  5. wprager

    wprager Well-Known Member

    3,408
    210
    Feb 19, 2006
    Ottawa, Canada
    In the origin world the nuclear power plant does not exist. No idea what Claudia does (we don't even get to see her). And if you are taking about the other two worlds then they are all looper's.
     
  6. Family

    Family Well-Known Member

    1,400
    169
    Jul 23, 2001
    Yes. Claudia's motivation was to return everything to the point the origin world split so there would be no power plant and Regina would live. Very logical reasonable goal, unlike every loop character who seemed lost in their motivations.

    The more you think about it, the more the brilliance of the show comes through. Tannhaus began the loop by attempting to keep his child alive, and Claudia closed it for the same reason. The beginning was the end.
     
  7. Family

    Family Well-Known Member

    1,400
    169
    Jul 23, 2001
    Another thought. Clausen were introduced in the primary world for the single purpose of having the god particle released because in the Alt world Aleksander had an unknown relationship with Charlotte leading to the reason the barrel was opened. So Clausen was affected by the loop, which is another explanation of how Claudia's actions were affected without actually being part of it.

    In a sense using Claudia as it's vessel, the loop closed itself. The loop characters were obsessed with having things as they always were. This represented the universe's way of righting itself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  8. Family

    Family Well-Known Member

    1,400
    169
    Jul 23, 2001
    Adams words from season two rang loud. "In the end we will all get what we deserve."

    They didn't deserve to exist.
     
  9. hefe

    hefe Rebus Philbin

    38,094
    2,644
    Dec 5, 2000
    CO via Chi-town
    Well, that was something. It was OK I guess, but I still skidded into the end not remembering or understanding why certain characters were where and when they were and what their relationships were.

    I'm not sure why it's assumed that anyone in the sub-worlds didn't exist in the origin world. We only see a dinner party at the end. Things are a bit jumbled, but all the characters we know could exist in different situations.

    I kind of glad it's done. Any longer and it would have outstayed its welcome. The dubbing made the acting stiffer than I assume it already is in German. A lot of the phrasing was awkward in English.

    I never really understood the title, Dark. It seemed like they tried to force fit it a bit at the end with some talk of darkness.

    I think that forevermore, if I hear "in your world...," my mind will internally finish, "...and in mine."
     
  10. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    53,771
    10,616
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    No, they couldn't. In my original post, I outline all the characters who existed because of time travel. In the new original world, there is no time travel, therefore those characters never existed.
     
  11. wprager

    wprager Well-Known Member

    3,408
    210
    Feb 19, 2006
    Ottawa, Canada
    Yeah, Rob's thread starter explains things in a straightforward way.

    Now, the wrinkle here is that if you believe in Lost time rules, the universe would have a way to autocorrect, and Marek and his family will still be killed, Tannhaus would still build the time traveling device, which would still split the universe and result in the same infinite loop again.
     
  12. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    53,771
    10,616
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    And they feinted towards that (when Jonas couldn't be killed because the gun kept misfiring until it wasn't pointed at him any more), but then went in a different direction (universal autocorrect doesn't work during the moment of the apocalypse).
     
  13. hefe

    hefe Rebus Philbin

    38,094
    2,644
    Dec 5, 2000
    CO via Chi-town
    I don't understand that post. Where did we learn that causation? If the people at the table existed at the end, why can't other characters exist that weren't at that dinner?
     
  14. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    53,771
    10,616
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    Because none of the people at the table were the descendants of time travelers. The other characters (almost all the ones who weren't there) WERE descendants of time travelers, and thus in this world without time travel were never born.

    Again, I spelled it all out in the original post....who no longer existed and why.
     
  15. hefe

    hefe Rebus Philbin

    38,094
    2,644
    Dec 5, 2000
    CO via Chi-town
    Yeah, I read it. I just don't understand it. It seems like more than was explained in the show.
     
  16. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    53,771
    10,616
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    Well, does it really need to be explained? People who don't exist, as a general rule, don't have descendants. I mean, I suppose they could have pulled a Back To The Future and showed Adam's genealogy floor with the various people fading from it. But that would have made this a much stupider show than it is. ;)
     
  17. hefe

    hefe Rebus Philbin

    38,094
    2,644
    Dec 5, 2000
    CO via Chi-town
    Yes, it does. Anything can happen in time travel stories, so it could have been made more clear. I can't keep the relationships in my head. I don't know who is from who and what world and when. You really needed a guide for the show, and I didn't put in that work. I just watched and then forgot stuff by 2 episodes later.
     
  18. wprager

    wprager Well-Known Member

    3,408
    210
    Feb 19, 2006
    Ottawa, Canada
    We don't even know if origin-universe Tannhaus succeeded in creating a time travel device; one of the podcasts I listen to was asking the question -- where did Tannhaus travel to? To which the answer is -- he may not have traveled at all. All we know (narrated by Claudia, so assuming she's not wrong and not lying) is that his machine managed to split the origin universe into the two alternate endless-loop worlds (prime and alt). Mikkel going back in time and becoming Michael Kahnwald only happened in those two worlds, not in the origin world. Now, it could also be argued that Mikkel did not use any of the time machines, but I believe Claudia mentioned something about the use of the time machines leaving trace amounts of cesium or whatever which, over time, is what resulted in the Winden caves having the time portals which led to 33 years in the past or future. So the assumption is, if Tannhaus did not invent the time machine that Mikkel could not have traveled from 2019 to 1986, thus he could not have married Hannah, which means the Jonas that we know would never have existed (there will be a Jonas with Hannah as the mother, but his father will be Woller and he will bear little resemblance to the Jonas we know). Jonas was the father of the cleft-lip man, who was the father of Hanno/Noah and Agnes. Agnes was the mother of Tronte, who is Ulrich's father; Hanno was the father of Charlotte. So without Mikkel going back and becoming Jonas' father we have no Ulrich and his family with Katharina, and no Charlotte.
     
  19. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    53,771
    10,616
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    Actually, only in one of the new worlds (the other had no "Michael" and no Jonah)...
     
  20. Family

    Family Well-Known Member

    1,400
    169
    Jul 23, 2001
    2020 Bartosz traveled back to the 1800's. 2020 Hannah traveled back to 1950's, had a child (Silja) with Egon Tiedemann and Silja traveled to 1800's. in late 1800's Bartosz and Silja have two children, Hanno and Agnes who are ancestors to many of the Dark characters (Tronte, and his ancestors in particular).

    Obviously if all the time travel never happened (which they made clear) everyone descended from Bartosz/Silja or any time travel never existed. Does that clear it up?
     

Share This Page