Current MRV users- fyi on what our competitors are providing

Discussion in 'TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs' started by Ilene, Sep 20, 2006.

  1. JDguy

    JDguy New Member

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    Can someone explain how Vongo supports the same functions as TTG? Does it allow you to copy content to a portable device (such as a PSP)? Does it allow you to burn a DVD-R of the content? Does it allow permanent archiving? Does Vongo provide HD content?
     
  2. MickeS

    MickeS Well-Known Member

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    That is if you burn them in DVD format. I rarely used it to do that, so TTG was very useful for me.
     
  3. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I'm guessing that all those features are linked in such a way that it's not easy for them to enable TTCB without also enabling TTG and MRV.

    Dan
     
  4. HDTiVo

    HDTiVo Not so Senior Member

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    That's also why I questioned whether TiVoCast would really get enabled soon.

    But, I think TiVoToCome is not there because the whole module is disabled for reasons of simplicity, whatever that means.

    Not so at all. There can be two parallel implementations which the PC end would have no problem handling.
     
  5. HDTiVo

    HDTiVo Not so Senior Member

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    -
     
  6. classicX

    classicX Don't scream.

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    Use it to watch a TV show from your iPod on a plane. Then I'll +1 you. :)
     
  7. classicX

    classicX Don't scream.

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    You have to sit there? What, are you taking screenshots frame by frame and making a video out of it? Let it work overnight!

    And get a faster comp.
     
  8. MickeS

    MickeS Well-Known Member

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    I never said it should be easy. ;)
     
  9. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    I respectfully disagree.

    It happens all the time.

    old OS's can only use FAT, newer ones can see FAT32 which is somewhat backwards compatiable, still newer ones can use NTFS which isn't backwards compatible, then MS is workign on a newer file system...


    Color TV came out after B&W and was backwards compatibale, HD came along and isn't compatable.

    So Tivo could make TTG2 be backwards compatible for analog sources to be backwards compatible with S2's and have a newer system for HD and digital content that only worls on S3's. Or they could just scrap it and make a new system.

    Also- they dont need to change MRV, but only TTG- so they could just change that part without messing with MRV. So there would be no issue with not working with S2's.
     
  10. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    You guys obviously don't understand how TTG works. All TiVos encrypt the video stream, using TiVo's proprietary encryption scheme, as it's being recorded. This encryption is used to protect the content whether it's on the original hard drive, transferred via MRV or transferred via TTG. In fact the only difference between MRV and TTG is that with TTG the TiVo multiplexes the audio and encrypted video stream into a normal MPEG-2 program stream before sending it over to the PC. This system allows TiVo to use a single encryption scheme for all aspects of their software, as well as allows them to use the simple HTTP protocol to transfer recordings between the TiVo and the PC.

    If they were to implement some sort of 3rd party DRM then it would have to be applied to the video on the TiVo itself, and it just doesn't have the processing power. If they trying to do it on the PC then people could simply grab the files off the TiVo using simple HTTP calls before the new DRM was applied. The only way around that would be to eliminate the HTTP protocol, but that's a staple of TiVo's entire network system including the ones used for Music, Photos and HME, so I just don't see that happening.

    On top of all that, even if they could work up some new DRM and make it run on the TiVo itself, they would still have the problem of playback. Right now they're using DirectShow, which is universal but obviously insecure. If they went with some new DRM then they would either have to roll their own player application which would be the only app that could play TiVo files, or they'd have to latch onto some Windows Media Player compatible scheme which would immediately exempt it from ever working on a Mac.

    I really just don't see this happening. TiVo has chosen their scheme and they are going to stick with it unless it becomes absolutely necessary to change. And with the option of simply enabling the feature for analog and OTA only still there I don't think it will ever be "absolutely" necessary.

    Dan
     
  11. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    Directshow is done with- if they change things i'd bet a large sum of money it hooks into windows vista's media player (assuming it's secure since MS is gettign cablecards)

    I'm following what you are saying, but isn't it possible to change the system ever so slightly on the series 3's so the current system wont work to decrypt it, Then the crappy directshow cant get at it?
     
  12. HDTiVo

    HDTiVo Not so Senior Member

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    Of course it is. That whole argument about DirectShow and DRM and WMP is flawed. Giving the example I did about Vongo alone shows that.
     
  13. JDguy

    JDguy New Member

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    It's not a very helpful response "-"???
    Was something removed?
     
  14. HDTiVo

    HDTiVo Not so Senior Member

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    Check the dark green letters in the the quote.
     
  15. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    All the cool features of TTG, including DVD recording via Sonic and iPod/PSP transcoding, are based on DirectShow. So it is highly unlikely that TiVo will move away from the DirectShow approach. As I said before it's much more likely that they will simply disable TTG for all digital cable programs if they can't get CableLabs approval.

    Dan
     
  16. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    NJ

    For now I totally agree.

    But do you think in 3 or 5 years time that they are going continue to have a system that doesn't work with digital cable programs? At that point the bulk of their subs will likley be cable subs (from cox , comcast, cablecard devices like series 3 and any other cableco's they pick up) and the bulk of the content will be coming from digital cable. TTG will be worthless for most content for most of their customers. You really think they will just sit there and let that go on?

    Microsoft clearly has some new DRM system with Vista. (and I'm not sure what the whole Viiv think is about...) At some point, I have to think that Tivo will need to upgrade TTG to work with the new paradigms in order to be competitive.


    Also- the broadcast flag is in limbo but if it ever comes back, I'd guess TiVo's FCC approval for tivogaurd is likely to be challanged on the grounds of the directshow flaw. So they wont be able to allow it for ATSC either. So OTA goes bye bye in 2009 also.

    I just dont think long term they can live with the current TTG system, so if they are going to need to replace it anyway at some point, why not do it sooner rather than wait till it's way past a competative disadvantage (not sure if "sooner" would be in the context of months even but seems 2009 would be too late)
     
  17. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    I'd be willing to bet that 90% of everything recorded on a S3 comes from the broadcast networks. So as long as they can enable it for the "in the clear" broadcast channels, the they'll probably be fine.

    Although, as I said before, the ideal solution would be to use some sort of system where the content provider chooses whether or not the program can be transfered. With that system we'd probably see protection on movie channels, like HBO, but the majority of networks wouldn't bother.

    Dan
     
  18. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    I agree 90% give or take comes from boradcast netwroks- but here's where I think the problem lies- they are delivered over the digital cable system. So if cablelabs denies TTG for cablecard content then you cant get them.

    Tivo can turn it on for ATSC (for now) but I dont think they can tell cable "hey that's broadcast anyway"

    If cablelabs allows a channel by channel or show by show implementation (which would make the most sense) then it's no problem, but if they dont then they could say nothing from digital cable (inlcuding all the broadcast netwroks that they deliver) is off limits...
     
  19. HDTiVo

    HDTiVo Not so Senior Member

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    There already are ways to flag shows for no transfer. TiVoCast and ProductWatch use them all the time

    Then isn't there a Macrovision flag for transfers? Copy never? Whatever?
     
  20. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    NJ
    the boradcast flag has all sorts of variations- copy never, move but dont copy, do whatever you want etc, and tivogaurd respects them. I would assume it's got the flexibility to also respect any of the flags that cable plans on.

    question is if cablelabs would allow it. Do they trust tivoguard or not?
     

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