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Counterpart (Starz) Season One Thread *spoilers*

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by astrohip, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. Feb 2, 2018 #81 of 470
    ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    As Anonymous said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Clearly we have significantly different world views. I hope your viewpoint does not diminish your enjoyment of the teleplay.
     
  2. Feb 2, 2018 #82 of 470
    wtherrell

    wtherrell Active Member

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    That definition of insanity is itself insane if understood as an absolute.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
  3. Feb 2, 2018 #83 of 470
    series5orpremier

    series5orpremier Well-Known Member

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    It’s just that your world view doesn’t believe in statistics which changes the laws of physics. Every moment is not an absolute but a distribution of possibilities, even if initially on a microscopic level, and none of your learned behavior or innate instincts have any control over that. If there are two universes then that’s a two case Monte Carlo simulation.
     
  4. Feb 3, 2018 #84 of 470
    ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure this remark would devastate me if it were not empty of semantic content.

    Also, could you please turn off your Tapatalk sig? It is very rude.

    No, I don't believe that statistics change the laws of physics. Statistics is a mathematical tool for modeling systems where information is incomplete or too complex for deterministic modeling, it does not change the physics of those systems for which it is applied.

    ===

    I believe you guys are all correct in concluding that a world that is random at the gross macroscopic level is incompatible with what we see described in "Counterpart". Where we differ is that I don't think that random world is compatible with the one in which we actually exist.

    I hope that your world view does not detract from your enjoyment of the narrative. A suspension of disbelief is necessary for the full enjoyment of science fiction.
     
  5. Feb 3, 2018 #85 of 470
    Allanon

    Allanon Active Member

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    I think the divergence would happen fast because once one person is split in to two people they would not move identically. Each step a person takes is not the same as the previous step there are slight variations and the two people would not be able to duplicate the same movements precisely thus causing a fast divergence. One person might walk a little slower and miss a traffic light. The other person might trip because they stepped wrong causing a greater divergence. This happening to billions of people at the same time will cause a fast divergence.

    Plus they hinted that one side messed with the other side and that alone would cause a divergence.
     
  6. Feb 3, 2018 #86 of 470
    series5orpremier

    series5orpremier Well-Known Member

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    And, in addition to statistics, your world view doesn’t believe in reading comprehension either.
    The world in which we actually exist is not the one in which you get to ignore math and science nor the one in which you get to make up your own rules.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  7. Feb 3, 2018 #87 of 470
    ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    If you meant to say that I don't believe in statistics, you left out a comma in your original remark. If you think I don't understand statistics you are mistaken. If you don't believe in cause and effect we are so far apart in world view that I don't think any further discussion would be fruitful.
     
  8. Feb 3, 2018 #88 of 470
    series5orpremier

    series5orpremier Well-Known Member

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    I can agree with this. I’ll just document out to the inter-webs that cause & effect, comma in case anyone decides to ignore context, and statistical randomness are not mutually exclusive.
     
  9. Feb 3, 2018 #89 of 470
    wtherrell

    wtherrell Active Member

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    Huntersville...
    Sorry about the Tapatalk sig, guys. I turn it off but it keeps coming back. Don't know why I keep expecting different results. I hope it's off again now. (I think)
    Got to say, this show has really caught my interest and you guys discussing it are great!
     
  10. Feb 3, 2018 #90 of 470
    Anubys

    Anubys All About Footwork

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    Fairfax...
    I just want to make sure that when I called your worldview insane, my intention was not to insult you but to inarticulately express my astonishment that someone would hold that view.

    What you are proposing is that everything that we attribute to randomness in our world is simply because the world is too complex for us to see the pattern. It is a fantastic claim, to be sure, and one that you must certainly agree puts you in a very very small minority that holds it.

    I am curious if this belief is born out of religion or not. I don't intend to get into a theological debate (God forbid! ;)) but I am curious as to how one arrives at such a fatalistic and deterministic view of the world.
     
    DevdogAZ likes this.
  11. Feb 3, 2018 #91 of 470
    wtherrell

    wtherrell Active Member

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    There was a philosophy proposed called Scientific Determinism back in the day. Denies free will. We can't be held responsible for what we do since we have no choice. It always sounded fishy to me, but there were and still are some proponents of it.
     
  12. Feb 3, 2018 #92 of 470
    Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Quantum physics killed determinism as a logical possibility.

    Which, of course, doesn't stop people from believing in it!
     
  13. Feb 3, 2018 #93 of 470
    ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    It is very hard for me to believe that anyone who cared about these concepts could be unaware of the history of debate on this issue. Still, it is worth considering the basis of my thinking. I'll give it some consideration and get back to you here.

    ===

    However. All of this discussion is about the real world, which none of us here in TCF really care about. What is really important is how things work in the fictional world of TV, movies and literary Science Fiction. We know from the many examples of the "Groundhog Day" trope (see link here) that there is absolutely no randomness in fictional time, that every iteration of a fictional time loop is exactly the same as the previous iteration except for changes due to the protagonist's action. Whether or not the "real world" is deterministic, fictional time loops never contain any random events.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  14. Feb 3, 2018 #94 of 470
    ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    If I assume cause is followed by effect, that the universe has rules and that they are knowable, by learning those rules and using them I can successfully live my life. If instead I were to conclude that the universe is an unsolvable mystery and that I am the victim of random unknowable chance, I would be without hope and despair.
     
  15. Feb 3, 2018 #95 of 470
    Anubys

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    Fairfax...
    I don't know why such extremes are your choices. Bad luck is balanced by good luck, isn't it?

    But in a larger sense, I control a significant amount of my fortune. I studied hard and worked hard. I earned my degrees and my promotions. I earn my paycheck. I save for the future and I plan for emergencies. I choose to forgo some pleasures because they are illegal or simply because the might be distracting me from my goals....and so on and so on...

    Sometimes, I was in the right place at the right time. Sometimes I wasn't. Things happened (good and bad) that were beyond my control. I had in my hand a lottery ticket that could have won me half a billion dollars. Someone else won instead. Random chance could have made me a half-billionaire; but it made someone else that instead. I had no control over that but I controlled a ton about my life.

    I have a ton of hope and very little despair.
     
  16. Feb 5, 2018 #96 of 470
    DevdogAZ

    DevdogAZ Give 'em Hell, Devils

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    Regarding Episode 3:

    Did I understand correctly that "our" side has advanced technology such as smartphones, while the "other" side has other advances such as vaccines, HIV treatment, mapping the human genome, and underwater oil exploration? And the "other" side claims to be behind in technology development because they had to fight some kind of pandemic that "our" side didn't have to deal with?

    That all seems like a strange mixture. We know the air on the "other" side seems to be cleaner, they have more tall buildings. So it just seems very odd that one side would be more advanced in electronics while the other side would be more advanced in biology and biochemistry. Seems like those scientific advances would require some pretty sophisticated electronics. And I'm not even sure what to make of the oil exploration in the Marianas Trench. Seems like that would require some very advanced technology as well.

    Also, pretty amazing revelation about the Emily on our side being aware of the two worlds and being in communication with the "other" Howard. Since the "other" Emily appears to have just been murdered, I'm guessing "our" Emily will soon wake up out of her coma so she can advise "our" Howard about what's going on.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  17. Feb 5, 2018 #97 of 470
    Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    Plus there's the question of "who she really is." Their Howard found out, and it ended their marriage. Our Howard hasn't found out.
     
  18. Feb 5, 2018 #98 of 470
    ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    The decay of radioactive isotopes is a quantum mechanical process that is truly random, as Schrodinger's poor/lucky cat would tell you. The resultant ionizing radiation is a significant cause of genetic mutation, which one might conclude is the source of the pandemic that Prime universe experienced but which did not happen in Alpha. This plague apparently resulted in a significant depopulation of the Earth, which would make it worse than anything since the Black Death. It seems reasonable to me that a plague worse than any since the Middle Ages would cause resources to be expended in the biological sciences over integrated circuit technology and consumer electronics.

    Exploring the Marianas Trench was done by Jacques-Yves Cousteau in the bathyscaphe Trieste in 1960. Drilling for oil at that depth would take an advanced technology but not obviously one requiring the development of consumer electronics. The Soviet Union almost got to the Moon without consumer electronics, for example.

    This is developing really well. I'm eager to see what comes next, and what everyone has to say about it here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  19. Feb 5, 2018 #99 of 470
    Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    It seems to me they were hinting that the pandemic came from our side, whether on purpose or by accident...
     
  20. Feb 5, 2018 #100 of 470
    ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    Prime accused Alpha, Alpha denied it; both sides are unreliable narrators. Which begs the question of where it came from in the first place; Prime is the one with enhanced biotech, not Alpha. If it originated on Alpha, it would have been artificial because the there was no pandemic Alpha side, but the Alpha side presumably would not have the ability to create it (which ability I presume in any case was the result, not a precursor, of the plague ). A natural mutation on the Prime side seems the simplest explanation to me, but it instead could have come out of a Cold War biowarfare laboratory that predated the split. We'll have to see what else is revealed about the plague in future episodes.

    Both sides are vigorously attempting to control cross contamination, which to me suggests that microbial evolution has differed significantly between the two worlds. Or they might just be paranoid about each other.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018

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