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Counterpart (Starz) Season One Thread *spoilers*

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by astrohip, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. Jan 31, 2018 #61 of 470
    tomhorsley

    tomhorsley Well-Known Member

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    Of course there is always the possibility that the writers wanted certain plot points, so they decided to write it that way :).
     
  2. Jan 31, 2018 #62 of 470
    Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    That's entirely possible in Hollywood, but so far this doesn't seem to be that kind of show...hopefully I'm not wrong about that! ;)
     
  3. Jan 31, 2018 #63 of 470
    Sparky1234

    Sparky1234 Totally

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    This show is intriguing.
     
  4. Feb 1, 2018 #64 of 470
    DevdogAZ

    DevdogAZ Give 'em Hell, Devils

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    Based on what they showed us in this episode, and the line spoken by the killer to the violinist "We both watched him die. We both did it. How do you forget?", I don't think there's any way to interpret it other than that Nadia was one person at the time she watched her father die on the U-Bahn tracks. It's very possible they could add more explanation in future episodes to add the complexity that's being speculated here. But we have to remember that explaining complicated concepts on TV shows is very difficult and expecting audiences to do math on ages and make assumptions about a difference between physical split and timeline split is a bridge too far. Therefore, I think we have to assume that until it's explicitly explained otherwise, the most logical answer is the one we were shown: Nadia (singular) watched her father die before the split.
     
  5. Feb 1, 2018 #65 of 470
    Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    I think it's more likely that they separately watched their fathers die (i.e., their separate lives hadn't diverged by that point) than that she is a 40-year-old woman...
     
  6. Feb 1, 2018 #66 of 470
    DevdogAZ

    DevdogAZ Give 'em Hell, Devils

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    It's entirely possible that will end up being the explanation. But it's not the explanation based on what was shown in this episode. They gave us no information or clues to indicate that the worlds physically split but that everything on the two sides continued to happen identically for many years. As Anubys said, that seems like a virtual impossibility.
     
  7. Feb 1, 2018 #67 of 470
    cherry ghost

    cherry ghost Well-Known Member

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    They did give us a clue.

    “Anyway, based on the math, we know these two women share a past. Nine, ten years before the timeline diverged. Same childhood, traumas, behavioral, whatever.”

    “Timeline diverged,” not “world duplicated.”
     
  8. Feb 1, 2018 #68 of 470
    DevdogAZ

    DevdogAZ Give 'em Hell, Devils

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    And the average viewer is supposed to understand that "timeline diverged" is a different event from "world duplicated"? Other than that Jordan Marks tweet, has there been anything in the show to indicate that? It seems like quite a leap of logic based on what they have shown us.
     
  9. Feb 1, 2018 #69 of 470
    Anubys

    Anubys All About Footwork

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    Well, I guess that - in a way - this is a clue. No, we're not supposed to understand that it's different. But when they do explain that the timeline diverged years after the worlds were split (if they do go that route), they would then come back to this line in the "previously on" and highlight it.

    The viewer would then have an "Oh" moment; and we are all impressed by how they had hinted at it but we didn't catch on...
     
  10. Feb 1, 2018 #70 of 470
    DevdogAZ

    DevdogAZ Give 'em Hell, Devils

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    Sure, and if they do that, then that will be great. But all I'm saying is that based on what we were shown in this episode, there is no reason to expect that.
     
  11. Feb 1, 2018 #71 of 470
    Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

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    But there IS reason to expect SOMETHING. Because no way is this a 40-year-old woman, which is what the plain reading of the conversation suggests. So something more than what we've seen or heard has to be going on.
     
    cherry ghost likes this.
  12. Feb 1, 2018 #72 of 470
    Family

    Family Well-Known Member

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    Often I need to come to this forum to figure out what is going on, but in this case I thought it was clear (based on her age and the 30 year split) that the show wanted the viewer to believe that the Nadia's experienced the death separately.

    This might change with more information, but now I don't know what else it could be other than theories on where the show might go.
     
  13. Feb 2, 2018 #73 of 470
    TampaThunder

    TampaThunder Well-Known Member

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    I've watched this show a couple of times and the closest they really came to an explanation was when both Howards were sitting in the concert hall listening to rehearsal. Howard 1 was telling Howard 2 what was going on and discussing Nadia/violinist and Nadia/Baldwin/assassin.

    Howard 1: "Based on the math we know these two women share a past. 9, 10 years before the timeline diverged. Same childhood, traumas, behavioral whatever."

    Howard 2 still not quite catching on.

    Howard 1: "Think of it this way. Up until 30 years ago there was just this [holds one hand up]. Then this happened [presses his two hands together]. Then this [holds his hands apart]. And now we're like .... [starts waving both hands around]. Two people, two completely different paths."

    So the way I see it 30 years ago the universe duplicated. 9-10 years later the two universes diverged. Apparently the two Nadias shared the same experience of standing by and letting their father get run over by a train and shortly thereafter, when things diverged, they went in completely different directions with one sticking with the violin and the other turning all Jessica Bourne. With this scenario Nadia in the present could be in her late 20's, possibly early 30's.

    The impression I get is that during those 10 years before divergence things were pretty much still the same in each universe. That's the sticky point. In any event now it's off the rails.
     
  14. Feb 2, 2018 #74 of 470
    DevdogAZ

    DevdogAZ Give 'em Hell, Devils

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    I just don't see any way for them to plausibly explain that the universe duplicated but all of the billions of people and tens of billions of choices those people make every day stayed identical between the two universes for many years after the split. I totally get Howard 1 saying that things started off similar and then eventually grew further apart. But to think that things stayed exactly the same, to the point that both Nadias were busking in the U-Bahn station at the same time and both fathers fell onto the tracks at the same time and both Nadias stood there and watched while their fathers were killed at the same time, is just way past the point of any plausible explanation.

    If you told me that two sets of people made identical choices in the two universes the day after the split, I could believe that. A month after the split, that's a little harder to believe, but still plausible. But a decade after the split? C'mon!
     
  15. Feb 2, 2018 #75 of 470
    TampaThunder

    TampaThunder Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree with this but as many have already pointed out the only explanation that would make sense and keep Nadia age appropriate for the timeline is that 1) Universe duplicated. 2) For 9-10 years everything remains exactly the same. 3) Universes diverge.

    Perhaps the writers know a lot more about what happens when a universe duplicates then we're aware of. In any event, I'm just going with the flow. If that's the only bump in the show I'll be very impressed.
     
  16. Feb 2, 2018 #76 of 470
    ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    Why are you thinking people in the two universes will be making different choices? The usual model of human behavior is that choices are made based upon learned experience and innate instinctive behavior. Only experience would be different between the universes based on whatever changed at the moment of divergence; the rate that change would propagate through the world would be completely arbitrary. Nobody would be making different choices until they had different experiences. And it's completely reasonable for the father's choice to kill himself would have been unaffected between the two worlds even ten years after the split, just as Howard thirty years later choose the same blue shirt.

    Just like in a time travel story, the rules have been made up by the writers for this particular story. At this point we still haven't been told exactly what those rules are nor what the initial conditions are that made the two universes different.
     
  17. Feb 2, 2018 #77 of 470
    Anubys

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    You can't be serious...impulse choices would happen randomly and cascade into a totally different worlds very quickly.

    Evenn simpler: imagine a man walking to his house in both worlds. Maybe he is half a second off the pace in one world versus another because he had to wave off a fly while he was walking. That half a second is the difference between a bus killing him in one and a bus missing him by an inch in the other. The two worlds are forever changed because of that one half second difference. Now add that random effect to every little decision, luck, microbe, mosquito, and - yes - butterfly; and it would be absolutely impossible for your scenario to come true.
     
  18. Feb 2, 2018 #78 of 470
    DevdogAZ

    DevdogAZ Give 'em Hell, Devils

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    In addition to what Anubys said, not every choice is based on learned experience and innate instinctive behavior. What if someone walks out to their car and realizes they left their keys in the house so they go back inside to get them. Is that the type of thing that is based on experience and instinct, or is it just a random mistake? Do we expect that both versions of that person in the two different worlds would both make the exact same mistake at the exact same time on the exact same day? Or would the one version be 1 minute behind the other one in his commute? And if one of them is a minute behind and gets stopped at a different stop light, that puts them in proximity to different traffic and would automatically result in changes. Think about how many choices you make on a daily basis. How many are based on experience and instinct, versus reacting to other people or outside forces. Are you thinking that every conversation in both worlds is identical for years after the split? Every movement of people and animals? Is the weather identical, or does it rain at different times in the two universes? What about natural disasters? Do those happen simultaneously? What about mechanical failures? If there is a car crash due to a blown tire in one universe, are we supposed to assume the tire blew at the exact same time in both worlds?
     
  19. Feb 2, 2018 #79 of 470
    ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    At the instant universes separated, the two men in both worlds would have exactly the same initial conditions. Absent quantum effects, they would continue to do exactly the same things. Their events could not possibly be a half second, a half millisecond, or a half microsecond different. Sure, at the level of quantum foam they would be different, but not on any time scale meaningful to human perception.

    They would be two identical brains operating under the same biochemical constraints. Unless and until affected by different outside forces, their biological thinking machines, their physical brains, would remember those keys at exactly the same microsecond and both go back into the house with exactly the same motions and timing.

    Even the African butterfly making hurricanes by flapping her wings would be flapping them exactly the same in both universes and creating the same weather systems in both universes, up until the effects of the whatever is different between the universes reaches it. Then, as Howard describes in the concert hall, the hands would begin to diverge, and differences would become apparent in the macroscopic world.

    In any case I'm excited to see what is coming in the next episode.
     
  20. Feb 2, 2018 #80 of 470
    Anubys

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    I'm sorry but I could not disagree any more with your view. I'm not insulting you but I do think what you are saying is bordering on insane!

    You are saying that the entire world is completely preordained with absolutely nothing is left to randomness or chance. As Devdogaz said, you are proposing that even mechanical processes will stress and break at the exact same instant. You're saying that electrical current will vary exactly the same way on every wire and to every machine. Every ejaculation into a cervix will result in the exact same sperm reaching the egg, for example.

    I cannot agree with this.
     
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