Converting Satellite Wiring to Tivo Setup

Discussion in 'TiVo Roamio DVRs' started by bergerl, Dec 13, 2015.

  1. bergerl

    bergerl New Member

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    Dec 11, 2015
    Hi, I am very new to this forum and Tivo. Decided to get rid of my dish setup and move to a lower cost OTA setup. See my diagrams (sorry they are not the best) of before and what I have done so far. Before, I had a cable coax for internet coming in to the cable box, then coax direct to my office with a cable modem and separate router. One additional Ethernet cable goes from the router to the family room TV area. 4 separate coax lines come from the satellite dish to the cable box, where each one is paired to a coax drop in different rooms in the house. Satellite TV receiver boxes were in each room. I also have an OTA antenna that comes directly to my office, where I attached it to my PC and used Media Center to record TV shows on my PC. The PC recording can go away in the new setup.

    Here is what I have purchased - Tivio Roamio OTA, 2 Tivo Mini's, one MOCA adapter (I think I may need one more), a POE filter and some splitters. There are also some leftover Satellite splitters. I need MOCA for the two Mini's, as I can't get cat 5 to those locations. So, trying to figure out the best way to get a MOCA network setup. As you can see in the diagram, I have both a COAX run and Ethernet to the Roamio, but no direct line from the OTA antenna to the Roamio. Worst case, I can run an extension from my current OTA location over to the Roamio - I am actually doing this now (coax run in the hallway between the two rooms just to test out the Roamio and my signal). The Roamio works fine, and with the Ethernet connection has no problem gathering program information. But of course this is a temporary test.

    I have looked at other posts here, but still can't tell for sure how to set the MOCA network up, and how to wire all 4 of the coax runs together. Not knowing what I was doing, after pulling out all the Dish antenna cables in the cable box, I put in a 4 way splitter and ran the Family Room coax to the input of the splitter, and attached the other runs to the output (cringing). Any advice on how to setup the cabling and MOCA adapters would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
    Larry
     

    Attached Files:

  2. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Heya, Larry, welcome.

    Great start on the effort, including the problem description details and special kudos for the diagrams.

    You seem exceedingly close to having everything you need, except for that permanent coax run from your antenna to your Roamio OTA.

    Short of the other alternatives (running a new OTA cable to the Family Room; moving your Roamio OTA to the office and putting a Mini out in the Family Room), could the antenna be run to the splitter location, instead? If so, you'll have a couple options for getting the antenna signal to your Roamio OTA. (The options can be discussed further, as needed.)

    As for MoCA, you seem to have everything you need, assuming that 4-way splitter is MoCA-compatible (rated to 1675MHz or above), and there's not some unmentioned amplifier in the setup. And you should only need the single MoCA adapter, since your Roamio OTA will be able to connect via Ethernet.

    Depending on how the Family Room and Roamio connect back to your coax splitter, you may have a couple options for how to install the MoCA adapter: at the modem/router location (certainty), or at the Roamio location with both the MoCA adapter and Roamio connected to an Ethernet switch (option would also require the Family Room coax outlet connect back to the 4-way coax splitter).

    Happy MoCA'ing...
    Karl
     
  3. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    One thing remains a mystery to me, related to the above...

    Did you have a single coax run from the cable box to your office, or were there 2 coax runs to this particular location: one for the cable modem and one for a satellite set-top box?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  4. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    I lied.

    Depending on your final coax configuration and how MoCA is enabled, you should expect to need a "PoE" MoCA filter installed, likely on the input to the 4-way splitter.

    More on "PoE" MoCA filters, here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10707966
     
  5. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Your inventory and diagrams do indicate you did the research. Again, kudos.

    First, yeah, the Family Room shouldn't be connected to the input of the splitter, in a typical setup. But *your* final connections will depend on exactly what's to be distributed over your coax lines.

    In the meantime, going back to my previous question, with your DISH cables pulled and cable runs connected to the outputs of your 4-way splitter, how is your cable modem now connected to your Internet provider's signal? (Again, I'm trying to determine if there are 2 separate cable runs to the office, or just a single run. Did your office not have a DISH hookup?)

    With your 4-way splitter connected as-is, do you have any unused ports on the splitter? How many total coax lines currently connect to that splitter, including the Family Room on the input? (At a minimum, you'll want to attach a 75-ohm terminator cap to any unused splitter ports; the preferred solution would be to use a splitter with exactly as many ports as needed, to avoid unnecessary signal loss.)
     
  6. bergerl

    bergerl New Member

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    Dec 11, 2015
    Karl, thank you very much for the quick and detailed reply, I appreciate it. To answer some of your questions:

    1) I only have a single coax run from my cable box to the office. It was originally part of the cable coax system, but was unused by the satellite installation and then hijacked by the cable internet company.

    2) I thought of keeping the Roamio in the office and adding a mini in the family room, but that would use up another tuner and I thought might run out

    3) It is possible (but not sure how hard) to run the OTA antenna to the cable box / splitter. This is lower on my list of options but understand it may solve other problems

    4) Splitter should be MOCA compatible. if not, I have another arriving tomorrow that definitely is

    5) Regarding this statement - "Depending on how the Family Room and Roamio connect back to your coax splitter, you may have a couple options for how to install the MoCA adapter: at the modem/router location (certainty), or at the Roamio location with both the MoCA adapter and Roamio connected to an Ethernet switch (option would also require the Family Room coax outlet connect back to the 4-way coax splitter)", I would love to have the MOCA at the router, but now sure how to get the signal back into the coax network as my only drop there is the internet cable. For the latter option, the family room coax does go to the splitter (thinking this would be how I get the signal throughout the rest of the house), but not sure what the Roamio ethernet could pass. The more signals I can put through the unused coax, the less that runs through my already busy ethernet nextwork :)

    6) I have the POE filter, just waiting on the final configuration to figure out where it will go.

    Thanks!
    Larry
     
  7. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    It sounds like you may just want to get everything working, if possible, with the temporary coax strung from the antenna to the Roamio in the Family Room, and then evolve the solution from there...??? If the preferred plan is to run the dedicated OTA antenna coax line to the Family Room, instead of the Office, then this would be the way to go.

    In such a scenario, would you run a second coax line to the Roamio OTA location, then, for the antenna, while keeping the existing coax run to the splitter in place?


    The Roamio will be able to communicate with the Minis via the Ethernet connection, and so the OTA programming, managed by the Roamio OTA, would reach the Minis via the network. If the antenna is run directly to the Roamio, that coax run from the splitter to the Family Room could possibly remain unused.


    Were you looking for the OTA antenna signal to only reach the Roamio and have the TiVo whole-home solution get the OTA programming to each TV location, or were you also wanting the OTA signal to be available on the coax line at each TV, in parallel to the TiVo whole-home solution, so that the TVs could tune the antenna signal, themselves, as a backup (or supplement) to the TiVos?


    Noted.


    True, but only when the Mini was in use (watching live programming), which would be the same case for the Roamio. In the early days of the Mini, any additional Mini required a dedicated tuner from the host DVR; now the Minis only consume a DVR when they need one, like for watching live TV (or on demand content, for Comcast customers with the XOD4TiVo app).

    Though another reason to keep the Roamio in the Family Room is because it offers a better channel surfing experience.

    So Roamio stays in the Family Room. Noted.


    Got it. And this could wait until later, going with the "get it working and evolve" approach -- though the dedicated coax run to the Roamio OTA may be the best solution, anyway.


    Check. Well done.


    On the Internet cable, natch! (will discuss/detail in a bit)



    Yep, and that's where the positioning of the MoCA adapter comes in. (This is where the dedicated OTA antenna run to the Roamio OTA will be especially handy.)


    Ah, roger! Again, well done.
     
  8. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    I threw a lot at you previously, so it's completely reasonable that one or more questions were missed. I could use the following into to make a final recommendation...

    Is your cable Internet coax currently run directly to the Office, bypassing the 4-way splitter?

    Did you have any plans on putting a Mini in the Office? (new question, actually)
     
  9. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Also, in terms of having the necessary ingredients...

    • Do you already have an Ethernet switch at the Family Room location, or do you have a spare Ethernet switch sitting around somewhere (or could quickly acquire one)? If yes, what brand/model is the switch (mostly interested in whether it's Fast Ethernet vs Gigabit)?

    • What is the brand/model number of your MoCA adapter?

    • What are the brand & model of your cable modem and router?
     
  10. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    First stab at recommendation, with picture instead of words (mostly)... see attached.
    Proposed%20Tivo%20Setup%20REVISED.png
    I need to produce the diagram for the yellow region (now available below), but the Family Room setup, as depicted, should meet your desire to keep as much traffic as possible off your Ethernet network, by locating the MoCA adapter at the Roamio OTA. As connected, all the heavy TiVo Multi-Room Streaming (MRS) traffic will be on the Family Room switch, strictly between the Roamio OTA and the MoCA adapter ports, with the MoCA adapter then feeding the Minis via coax. The lighter Internet streaming and service/guide update traffic would then run up the Ethernet line to the router and beyond.

    The Ethernet switch in the Family Room is necessary to allow the single MoCA adapter to both create your MoCA network (on the coax run heading back to the cable box) as well as supply the Roamio OTA with its network connection. As a side benefit, the Ethernet switch will also allow for connection to any other Ethernet devices in the Family Room. (I'm half-guessing you have an Ethernet switch there, already.)

    edit: p.s. Another benefit of using this approach, rather than locating the MoCA adapter at the router, is that TiVo Multi-Room Streaming between the Roamio and Minis would continue to function even through a reboot of the router.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  11. BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    I haven't read all of krkaufman's input. I'm sure he's covered everything but just from reading the OP, this is the quick version of what I see...

    The proposed setup is pretty close.

    - An OTA coax run to the Roamio is pretty much mandatory. This has to be separate and indepdendent from the cable feed.

    - The Roamio will need a wired internet connection. You appear to have ethernet planned for that room, so that's fine (and probably preferred for the sake of setup simplicity.)

    - The Minis being connected to the internet cable feed is doable.


    It's actually not too hard... The moca adapter gets connected to the cable modem/router in the standard way (pic below). With the Roamio connected to the network by ethernet, they should all see each other.

    A POE filter gets installed on the input side of the cable coax's primary splitter.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  12. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    And here's one way to wire the cable box (yellow highlighted area in previous diagram) to get you setup with MoCA networking between THREE of your rooms:
    • Family Room
    • Living Room
    • Master Bedroom
    cable%20box%20eg1.png
    The Office would have direct access to the router, so extending MoCA networking to the Office should be unnecessary. (... but can be addressed if/when you're looking to add a Mini in there)

    A couple additional benefits of the setup as described by these two diagrams are:
    • Your MoCA network is isolated from both your cable Internet provider *and* your OTA antenna, so installation of a "PoE" MoCA filter is unnecessary;

    • With the MoCA network isolated in this manner, connecting the MoCA adapter at the head-end of the coax tree (input of the splitter) provides the best MoCA connection quality of the available options (per recent testing, here).
    Note that this *is* a non-standard implementation, but, I believe, one best-tailored to your requirements (as I understand them).
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  13. bergerl

    bergerl New Member

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    Dec 11, 2015
    Thank you Karl and Jim for your insights. A few more answers to questions posed and comments:

    1) I do have an ethernet drop in the family room right now. Last night I added a 5 port switch so I can have Ethernet to the Roamio, XBox, and eventually the TV when I replace it with a more modern one. Switch is fast ethernet, as my two spare gigabit switches both failed testing. Considering picking up a new one if it will be a bit help.

    2) Cable modem is a ubee DDM352.1 (TWC new this year). Cable run is direct from the curb to the cable box, which is then directly connected (no splitter) to the office coax line. That is then connected, of course, to the cable modem.

    3) Router is an Asus RT-AC68U dual band gigabit.

    4) The MOCA adapter is an Actiontec ECB2500C.

    5) Looks like everyone recommends running a dedicated OTA line to the Roamio in the Family room (replacing my temporary out in the open trip over it version)

    6) for this question: "in such a scenario, would you run a second coax line to the Roamio OTA location, then, for the antenna, while keeping the existing coax run to the splitter in place?", I was planning on just extending the existing antenna cable from the office to the family room. Technically, the current coax from the antenna is split under my desk, with on lead going directly to a tuner in my PC, and the other lead going to an external HD Homerun box that then feeds into my PC (giving me 4 tuners). I have disconnected one lead and attached the hallway cable to my family room for the moment.)

    7) My thought was to have the OTA signal only go to the Roamio, and have it feed shows / signals to the minis.

    8) No plans on Mini in the office at this time

    I see that both of you are recommending different placements for the MOCA adapter. Not sure which way to go (I am sure they both work), but I may start with Kaufman's approach. Thanks to both of you for the diagrams! These make it much easier for me to figure out :)

    It is getting dark here so I will probably only be able to setup the MOCA adapter today, and will have to try the cable box work tomorrow afternoon. Please feel free to provide any additional feedback from my answers/comments above. I really appreciate the help - I just do not know enough about MOCA to figure this one out on my own.

    Larry
     
  14. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    The Fast Ethernet switch will be just fine from the standpoint of the Roamio OTA and Actontec MoCA adapter -- as both only have Fast Ethernet ports. And that switch being there fits perfectly with the suggested Family Room setup diagrammed above.

    Upgrading to a Gigabit switch would only be necessary if you felt a need for your Xbox. (Though I'd think you'd first need an Internet connection capable of exceeding 100Mbps down or up.) Regardless, that's not a factor in getting your TiVo and MoCA setup running. The existing switch will suffice.

    One thing to note is that between the router LAN connection, Roamio OTA, MoCA adapter and Xbox you'll already have filled 4 Ethernet ports on your switch. And you could count on filling another if TiVo has a sale on the TiVo Stream. ('gist: You may want to keep your eyes on sales for 8-port switches; or not, if the Stream isn't a consideration.)


    Thanks. The specific model became less important with the suggested setup where the cable Internet line will be isolated from MoCA. (Some modems aren't compatible with MoCA and require an additional MoCA filter on the input.)


    Chuckle. Yeah, it'll probably be good to get that cable re-routed before it's flattened.

    If you decide you'd prefer to route it through the cable box, that can be addressed.


    Excellent; both fit with the suggested config diagrams. (guessed right... woot!/phew...)


    Based on your previous comment, that the Family Room was routed into the input on your 4-way splitter, and that the cable Internet was a direct run to the Office, you may not have much/anything to do in the cable box to get basic MoCA connectivity to the Living Room & Master Bedroom working.

    That said, you will need to get out there, on your schedule, to verify connections, and ideally swap-out the existing equipment for more appropriate gear. At a minimum, you'll want to put 75-ohm terminator caps on any unused splitter ports, if you can't downgrade to a MoCA-compatible 2-way.

    Speaking of terminators, you'll want to get one on the unused "RF Out" port of the MoCA adapter, as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  15. bergerl

    bergerl New Member

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    Yahoo! You guys are really good! I just hooked everything (the MOCA) the way you suggested, and it worked first try. Not only that - now get ready - it looks like in the long past, I had already split the OTA coax and had a drop in the family room right next to my Tivo. I unplugged my hallway cable, plugged the other one in, and it fired right up. I then walked to my Living room and upstairs master bedroom, and MOCA was found with no problems. Just finished LR setup and have a football game on, and am just finishing the MB unit.

    What is so nice, is this is how it is supposed to work. But it rarely does for me, so this is a pleasant surprise. My wife is now impressed, I don't think she quite believed I would be able to get it running without considerable additional expense.

    Thanks for all the help, and time, today. I will share back anything else I learn, and I am sure there will be one or two more questions along the way.

    Larry
     
  16. BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

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    5/6) If both the office and FR are getting a good OTA signal, then there's no reason not to keep doing the signal splitting. An absolutely dedicated line to the Roamio is not mandatory. By separate and independent, I just meant it had to be a separate feed from the cable line as the OTA and internet can't be combined to a single coax.

    edit: Nevermind. Glad it works. lol.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  17. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Most excellent.


    Nice bonus.


    Still some cleanup to do out in that cable box, as well.

    Also, you might want to assess your MoCA signal quality at both your Minis. See the following post for more info:

    edit: p.s. You should observe a slight boost in quality if you compare measurements before and after swapping the 4-way splitter with a MoCA-compatible 2-way. (And I'd be interested in hearing what your Minis are reading, at either stage.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015
  18. bergerl

    bergerl New Member

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    Dec 11, 2015
    Sorry for the delay, Here are the numbers:

    Living Room - TX PHY 275, RX PHY 272, TX Power -27, RX Power .457
    Master Bedroom - TX PHY 271, RX PHY 273, TX Power -27, RX Power .447

    Hope this means something to you....and that it is good news for me :)

    Thanks again,
    Larry
     

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