Connect Roamio OTA and Mini via MoCA

Discussion in 'TiVo Mini' started by mobilelawyer, Jun 21, 2016.

  1. mobilelawyer

    mobilelawyer Occasional Old Timer

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    Got the adapter hooked up in just a few minutes, and MoCA appears to be working swimmingly, distribution amp nothwithstanding. I did first install a POE filter between the antenna and the amp input, however, just to make sure.

    The mini seems perky and responsive connected through MoCA, and Netflix streams fine. I cannot get a network connection to the TiVo service, however. I don't that is related to MoCA, and is temporary, because I can't make the connection on the Roamio either.
     
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  2. snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

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    WOW just when I thought advice from TiVo couldn't get any worse. Their diagram showing how to connect OTA using two PoE filters is, quite simply, insane. Please ignore their diagram. That connection will violate FCC regulations by broadcasting DOCSIS modem signals out through the antenna. It will also allow very little of the OTA signal to actually reach the TiVo, since it sends virtually all of the OTA signal upstream toward the ISP coax. In addition, the ISP in this case is probably a cable provide, and catv signals are likely to be on the cable even though they are unused, so this setup would have OTA signals and catv signals stomping on each other.WOW

    Sorry, back to your question. Some systems do require more than one PoE filter, but that doesn't have anything to do with the Bolt specifically. In addition, the use of PoE filters is the same for all versions of MoCA. The PoE filters simply block the MoCA signals from going places where they are not wanted, while allowing the OTA/catv signals to pass through. A PoE filter is needed for the OTA antenna in order to keep the MoCA signals away from the antenna. The OTA/catv signals are below 1GHz, while MoCA signals usually operate between 1175MHz and 1675MHz. The PoE filter blocks the MoCA signals by acting like a mirror that reflects the signals back down the cable rather than letting them pass through. This reflection of the MoCA signals actually boosts the signal strength and improves the performance of the MoCA network.

    If you are using OTA for TV signals and also using a cable feed for internet access, I would suggest connecting the cable/ISP feed only to your modem. When an external coax is used only for internet access, it doesn't need to go anywhere other than your modem. Then use a single PoE filter, attached directly to the topmost splitter that feeds the coax to the house, and connect the OTA antenna to that PoE filter.
     
  3. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Heh, take this poor soul's symptoms as one example, from reddit.
    /r/Tivo: MoCA issue with Tivo Bolt, Mini, TWC, OTA antenna, and Arris DG1670A

    If I connect the input to the 3 way splitter output, the antenna signal goes out and the Bolt can't get any TV/Antenna signal. I tried various combinations of inputs and outputs at the 2 way splitter, but in all cases, as soon as I plug in the output from the 3 way splitter, the TV/Antenna signal goes out on the Bolt.
     
  4. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Good to hear!

    You may want to review the following post, to associate a score, as it were, with your current MoCA connection quality. This will allow you to evaluate later configuration changes relative to their effect on your MoCA connection.


    Yeah, you'll first need the Roamio to be fully functional and able to make successful TiVo service connections before you'll have any success getting the Mini to connect to TiVo or the Roamio. (Note that what may appear to be a network issue when first trying to activate a Mini on the network may simply be a matter of the Roamio not being aware of it; see this post re: Mini activation.)
     
  5. mobilelawyer

    mobilelawyer Occasional Old Timer

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    TX PHY = 282 Mbps
    RX PHY = 265 Mbps

    I'll take that!

    Actiontec Bonded 2.0 adapter
     
  6. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    That *should* get the job done, once your Mini can talk to the Roamio.
     
  7. BLAZN420

    BLAZN420 New Member

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    I have the CM3414 distribution amp with an OTA antenna. I can verify it works fine with MoCa 1.1. And a POE filter is not needed with this amp since it only passes 4-42MHZ back through the input of the amp. MoCa 1.1 speeds are the best you will get using this amp, the Roamio OTA ethernet port is only 100Mbps so you wont be missing much unless you think you will need faster MoCa speeds in the future. I'm sure others have mentioned this before but I'm just verifying since I actually have the CM3414. I use a Roamio OTA and two TiVo minis.
     
  8. fcfc2

    fcfc2 Well-Known Member

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    I think I understand your reasoning, but I think you might be mistaken about not needing a MoCA filter with that amp, especially if you report that it passes the MoCA frequencies between it's ports so readily. Unless it has an undocumented MoCA filter builtin, it most likely is passing your MoCA frequencies back up to the antenna. I don't want to argue with you, but I would bet a nickel that if you hook up another MoCA adapter to it's input, you will get data from it's Ethernet port. In any case, good practice would be to install a MoCA filter on the input of the amp, if nothing else, you will strengthen the MoCA signal on your network....and the filters are pretty cheap especially off of Ebay.
     
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  9. BLAZN420

    BLAZN420 New Member

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    It only passes 4-42mhz on the input of the amp. MoCa 1.1 only operates between 500 to 1500 MHz.

    So I'm assuming no MoCa frequency is going back through the input of the amp and out of the Antenna. I can't really connect a MocA bridge to the input of the amp because it is outside of the house.

    My network speeds on MoCa are topping out at 100Mbps which is the max speed of the ethernet ports on the MoCa bridges.

    But there is no harm in putting a filter in, although I would imagine you get some signal loss with the filter in the path.

    Distribution Amp units by Channel Master provide amplification and distribution allowing you to route your digital and hd signals to multiple locations while amplifying. 4 Port TV amplifier CM 3414
     
  10. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    The MoCA we mostly care about is MoCA 1.1 "D Band" and operates between 1125-1525 MHz -- with MoCA 2.0 extending the top end up to 1675 Mhz.

    The amp is spec'd to pass those frequencies; that doesn't mean that it was designed and manufactured to block signals outside that range. MoCA signals likely ARE passing through that amp, from the outputs to the input, but diminished by amp circuitry.

    The typical "PoE" MoCA filter adds minimal loss, ~1 dB.
     
  11. BLAZN420

    BLAZN420 New Member

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    I never considered that, might go with the filter anyway since the signal loss was the only thing I was worried about. I'm on my 3rd CM3414 BTW, it doesn't seem to hold up well in extreme temperatures. My next amp would be one of the PCT MoCa friendly amps, they have a built in filter I believe.

    Besides slower network speeds what would be another indication that the MoCa signal is going back through the Antenna? And how big of a problem can that be?
     
  12. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    That *does* make the test problematic -- but it also highlights a common security risk associated with MoCA installs, where the cable distribution point, and therefore the "PoE" MoCA filter installation location, is outside the home, unsecured. It can be a bit like putting a Gigabit switch on the outside wall of your house.

    From Andrew Hunt's "MoCA: Operation and Security Posture" paper presented to DEFCON:

    V. CONCLUSIONS
    Media over Coaxial Alliance networking protocols provide many attractive features to operational service providers. Guaranteed bandwidth, quality-of-service provisioning, and a robust RF-shielded physical network help the OSP to provide reliable, easily maintained service to customers for their high-demand entertainment requirements. However, the common implementation of these broadband services , such as external wiring and splitting, extend the internal local area networks outside the home. With commonly available equipment and software tools, an attacker can take advantage of this MoCA network extension to gain influence and subvert the LAN from outside the walls of the domicile. A single network access point yields access to all hosts on the bridged Ethernet switch – MoCA, Ethernet, and wireless alike. With influence over layer 2, the attacker can then influence vulnerabilities in upper layers of the OSI service model to commit reconnaissance, targeted exploitation, and persistent footholds upon discovered devices.

    See also Andrew Hunt's associated paper and presentation (and video presentation) on a Raspberry Pi MoCA Penetration Device, available here.
     
  13. BLAZN420

    BLAZN420 New Member

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    Good stuff thanks for the info!
     
  14. fcfc2

    fcfc2 Well-Known Member

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  15. BLAZN420

    BLAZN420 New Member

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    Do these block moca in both directions? One of the outputs of my amp feeds a 3 way splitter to my tenants apartment. I'd like to put one in front of the line going to their splitter. And is there a difference between these and the Holland branded one that amazon sells for $8 each.
     
  16. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

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    Yes, MoCA filters are bidirectional and a MoCA filter installed on the input to the "tenant" 3-way splitter would work well to keep your MoCA signals from reaching your tenants -- and would allow your tenants to establish their own MoCA network, if desired. If that splitter isn't secured (i.e. the tenants could access it and remove the MoCA filter), you could put the MoCA filter on the appropriate amp output port heading to the tenant splitter.
     
  17. BLAZN420

    BLAZN420 New Member

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    All their cabling is indoors, but they are childhood friends practically family. If we did combine our MoCa networks it would be intentional. Something I've considered since we both pay a good amount for our Fiber internet connections. But that's a discussion for another thread.
     
  18. fcfc2

    fcfc2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, about $5 per.
     
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