Confirming Understanding of Setup (Bolt and Mini) to Existing TWC Moca?

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by Tony Jenkins, Nov 30, 2015.

Tags:
  1. Tony Jenkins

    Tony Jenkins New Member

    6
    0
    Nov 30, 2015

    Advertisements

    Looking to get a Bolt and a Mini to replace my Time Warner boxes. Need to know if my understanding is correct for setting everything up. Here is my current TW Cable setup:

    Incoming cable from outside -> POE -> 2 Way Splitter -> Split A to Modem -> Modem to Router via ethernet -> Router to Ethernet Switch in Living Room

    Split B -> POE -> 2 Way Spliter -> Split C to Bedroom (HD box)

    Split D to Living Room (DVR)

    Is it as simple as replacing the Bedroom HD box with the Tivo Mini and the Living Room DVR with the Bolt (adding another splitter here- one for tuning adapter and one for Bolt)?

    If it is, I am confused if I would have to also plug the Bolt into the Ethernet Switch that is in the living room?

    Also, I'm not sure how this setup with Time Warner is even working. I don't see how there is a loop back to the bedroom HD box to see the DVR recordings on the Living Room box, but it is.
     
  2. mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

    3,640
    1,350
    Aug 13, 2015
    Yes, add splitter for TA and do plug Bolt into Ethernet as well. Need to add POE filter before TA and to incoming cable from outside. Config Bolt to create Moca network and Mini to connect via Moca.
     
  3. Dec 1, 2015 #3 of 22
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

    3,317
    655
    Mar 21, 2004
    You mention having an existing moca network. Is that built into your modem? If there is a moca network coming from the modem's line, you don't want the POE filter at Split B. That unneeded filter could be added to the back of the tuning adapter. You'll want one there for sure.

    The Bolt would need an ethernet connection if it is creating the moca network. If you have an existing moca network, then it only needs coax.
     
  4. Dec 1, 2015 #4 of 22
    Tony Jenkins

    Tony Jenkins New Member

    6
    0
    Nov 30, 2015
    I went ahead and made two crappy MS Paint diagrams so it's easier to see what I have setup now and what my understanding of how to transition to Tivo.

    Already have the POE from cable coming inside as seen in the picture and will the second POE at the split before going to the two boxes work in place of having it right before the TA?

    This is where I am confused. I thought the Time Warner setup is Moca since they installed POE filters, etc. But as it is now, I don't understand how the HD box in the bedroom is pulling from the DVR in the living room. There is no loop or connection between the two. Unless I don't understand how Moca works- is it able to somehow loop back from the splitters? The modem TW supplied has a Moca indicator, but it's not lit up. Maybe TW has some proprietary way they do their Whole Home DVR?

    Doesn't the POE at split B do the same thing as having it at the back of the TA since the coax leads directly back to it? Not a big deal to switch it around, but I am also trying to get a good understanding of how/why it works the way it does.

    If the TW setup is Moca, I assume removing those boxes removes the existing Moca so I would have to use the Ethernet connection for the Bolt to make a "new" Moca network?

    Edit: Just realized the pictures get shrunk way down. If they're too hard to see, I'll fix it tomorrow.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 1, 2015
  5. Dec 1, 2015 #5 of 22
    BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

    3,317
    655
    Mar 21, 2004

    Advertisements

    Moca signals travel up and down splitters and coax. The two boxes can communicate because their coax are connected at a common splitter. Your whole home is interconnected.

    Since the modem has a moca feature, are you able to turn it on in the modem's settings? If yes, great. If not, there are a couple ways to create a moca network:

    1. Connect the Bolt by ethernet to the router or switch. Select "use this DVR to create a moca network" in the settings.

    2. Connect a moca adapter to the router/modem. Then the Bolt and Mini will connect by just selecting moca as their connection type.

    I'm guessing the moca is happening within the set top boxes themselves, so one of the above solutions will be needed if the modem's moca can't be turned on.

    Moca travels everywhere that isn't filtered. Sadly, moca can sometimes cause interference with Tuning Adapters. To avoid the risk, the TA gets its own filter to block the moca from reaching it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2015
  6. Dec 1, 2015 #6 of 22
    snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

    1,538
    552
    Jun 6, 2008
    PoE filters allow video signals to pass through, while blocking MoCA signals by reflecting them back, just like a mirror. If you think of the coax as forming a tree, then a PoE filter will keep the MoCA signals confined to the branches that are downstream from the PoE filter.

    You also need to understand how RF signals interact with splitters. A "downstream" RF signal that enters a splitter will have the RF power evenly distributed between the outputs of the splitter. So when signals enter a 2-way splitter, roughly half the RF power goes to each output port. With a 4-way splitter, roughly 1/4 of the RF power goes to each output port. I say "roughly" because a splitter will always absorb some the the RF power and convert that energy into heat. Splitters are bidirectional devices, and they are "reciprocal" devices, which means that the "insertion loss" (3.5dB for a 2-way) for upstream signals is equal to the insertion loss for downstream signals. When upstream power enters an output port, some of the RF power will pass to the input of the splitter, and the remaining power will mostly be absorbed by the splitter. So when upstream signals reach the output port of a 4-way splitter, roughly 1/4 of the power will be passed to the input port, and the remaining RF power will be mostly absorbed by termination resistors that are built into the splitter. A tiny fraction of the RF power (maybe 0.1%) that enters an output port will "leak" to other output ports (some MoCA literature describes this as "port jumping").

    In your system, when one MoCA device sends data, it goes up through the 2-way splitter where the power gets cut in half going through the splitter, then MoCA signals reflect off the PoE filter (which absorbs some RF power) and then the reflected signals are evenly divided by the 2-way splitter. So with the PoE filter in place, the net loss in signal strength will be about 8db (3.5dB for each time passing through the splitter, and maybe 1dB loss from the PoE filter). If all PoE filters are removed, then upstream power will mostly be lost completely, but the tiny leakage associated with "port jumping" can allow the MoCA devices to communicate. When the MoCA devices communicate only via port jumping, the net loss in signal strength will be more like 25dB or more, compared to only 8dB with the PoE filter in place, and this is a dramatic difference in signal strength.

    I hope that wasn't too much information.

    In the system as configured at present, the PoE filter at the main splitter isn't really doing anything. The lower PoE filter may have been placed there so that MoCA signals are blocked from reaching the cable modem.

    Yes, the Bolt can be used to create the MoCA network if it has a wired Ethernet connection.
     
  7. Dec 1, 2015 #7 of 22
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,984
    2,981
    Nov 25, 2003
    No. You definitely need a MoCA filter in place on the input to your tuning adapter. You're looking to prevent any stray tuning adapter frequencies from interfering with your MoCA signals, and blocking MoCA signals from confusing the tuning adapter. (The result of mixing is not Reese's Peanut Butter Cup goodness.)


    Here's some more info, mostly copied from a recent post discussing tuning adapter setup...
    ------

    With TWC, you're likely to also need/get a Switched-Digital Video (SDV) tuning adapter to pair with your DVR, and, since you're looking to do MoCA, you won't want to follow TWC's connection instructions for the tuning adapter.

    Contrary to the TWC tuning adapter installation instructions, you MUST split the coax signal to feed your tuning adapter and MoCA-enabled DVR separately. If connected according to the MoCA-ignorant instructions posted on the TWC support pages, with the DVR coax connected to the "TV Out" of the tuning adapter, the MoCA signals will be blocked/mangled by the tuning adapter.

    With the tuning adapter and DVR feeds split in this manner, it is *then* recommended to also place a MoCA filter on the input to the tuning adapter, to prevent interference, as well as placing a 75-ohm terminator cap on the tuning adapter's "TV Out" port.

    See the following for additional details:
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  8. Dec 1, 2015 #8 of 22
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,984
    2,981
    Nov 25, 2003
    Well done; thanks. Diagrams help so much. (Even shrunk by the TCF upload bot, they're still recognizable.)

    Also helpful would be the brand/model numbers for your cable modem and router.


    Entirely correct. And your planned setup in your second drawing looks great, except for two nits:
    • a MoCA filter is needed on the input to the tuning adapter (as detailed in previous post)

    • the Mini would obviously be connected to that coax line (just a "typo" in the image)
    As is, your diagram should get you going -- but your tuning adapter may give you (extra bonus) fits without the MoCA filter in place.

    Looks to me like you've got it all down.
     
  9. Dec 1, 2015 #9 of 22
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,984
    2,981
    Nov 25, 2003
    snerd has this covered, I believe. ('gist: Your TWC setup *was* MoCA, and, yes, MoCA can effectively do that.)


    Not proprietary, at least in terms of how they're communicating. Comcast is using MoCA for networking between their X1 boxes, as well.

    As for that modem, we'd need its model number to understand what its capabilities are. It *may* be a gateway device (i.e. modem/router combo); however, if it's being employed strictly as a modem, then it can't do anything for you on the MoCA front. I just had a similar discussion, yesterday (here) -- the 'gist being that a modem-only device can't be your MoCA-Ethernet bridge because the modem only has access to the WAN side of your router. You need your MoCA bridge to connect between coax(MoCA) and your home network (the LAN side of your router) -- as you are doing when connecting your BOLT to that Ethernet switch.

    ---
    edit: p.s. Confusion may arise, in my view, because the Comcast and TWC MoCA solutions don't have the same requirement to bridge their MoCA traffic back to the home network to get to the Internet. Whatever Internet communication they're doing is happening through built-in modems within their main DVRs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2015
  10. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,984
    2,981
    Nov 25, 2003
    As snerd highlights, with both your TWC and planned TiVo setup, your MoCA network is originating at the end of the coax line in your Living Room and is confined to the segment of coax downstream of the MoCA filter placed on the input to your secondary splitter(B). No MoCA signals travel beyond that filter, up to your main splitter or back down towards your modem.

    The value of a MoCA filter being located on the input to your secondary splitter(B) is that it maximizes your MoCA signal strength and responsiveness, by confining the signal to only that portion of your coax plant where the signal is needed.

    However, you may find that you could rely on the "PoE" MoCA filter on the input to your main splitter(A) without any loss in performance.

    Should you want to evaluate any changes in MoCA performance associated with removing the MoCA filter on splitter B, in favor of allowing the MoCA signal to travel throughout your coax plant, you can:
    1. Use the individual devices to see if there is any noticeable difference in usability (lags, disconnects, etc);

    2. Access the "Network Status" screen on your TiVo devices to view any change in the MoCA-related statistics; see this post, here, for more info on checking your MoCA stats.

    p.s. As a side benefit, this will also allow you to get a MoCA filter installed on the input to your tuning adapter.
     
  11. Tony Jenkins

    Tony Jenkins New Member

    6
    0
    Nov 30, 2015
    Excellent, thanks for the explanations! Now knowing that the POE filters allow reflection makes the setup a lot more clear. I really can't stress how helpful everyone's feedback above is!

    From all of the help, I think I have it down now. I attached an updated schematic that should be a lot easier to see now with modem and router make/model added. (*Note: the red Ethernet cable starting from the left of the diagram and hitting that first Splitter (A) is the feed coming into the house.)

    Down to just two questions now (assuming my schematic is correct):

    1) I went ahead and removed the first POE (now referred to as "B") that was attached to the cable from outside just before Splitter A and moved it to the Tuning Adapter. I left the other POE (now "A") where it was so that the Moca network is basically all self contained and separated from the other side of the split to the modem. I assume this would be ideal?

    Some potential concerns with this:

    I remember reading info that POE's should be right by the feed going outside- maybe that's why Time Warner put that second POE before that first split (A)? Maybe it was just an extra precaution?

    So it sounds like it's best to keep the Modem split separate from the Moca split- any benefit to leaving that first POE before Split A so that Moca could reach the modem? Seems like it could just lead to potential unwanted interference.

    2) I thought Moca filters were passive so it doesn't matter which orientation you have them in. But, looking closer at what Time Warner did, it looks like they made an effort to keep the two POE's I have in the same direction- they added a female/female adapter to one of them so it was "flipped" the same way as the other. Wondering if this was done for a reason, or Time Warner just added more unnecessary steps as they are apt to do in my experience.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,984
    2,981
    Nov 25, 2003
    Not to open a whole 'nother can of worms or anything... but are you set on the BOLT, over a Roamio Plus or Pro?

    (several other "BOLT vs..." threads ongoing, if you *are* open to other options; see here or here, or ask questions)
     
  13. Tony Jenkins

    Tony Jenkins New Member

    6
    0
    Nov 30, 2015
    Definitely interested in the Bolt, although one of the threads you linked me indicated that: "currently out of home network streaming does not work"- this is a major problem if that's still the case.

    Any comments regarding my final setup post?
     
  14. BigJimOutlaw

    BigJimOutlaw Well-Known Member

    3,317
    655
    Mar 21, 2004
    The new diagram looks good. You should be set.

    The Bolt doesn't work out-of-home yet, but it most likely will sometime in the general short term. But the Roamio Plus/Pro are solid too. No losers in those choices.
     
  15. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,984
    2,981
    Nov 25, 2003
    FYI... Two splitters are labeled "(B)"
     
  16. Tony Jenkins

    Tony Jenkins New Member

    6
    0
    Nov 30, 2015
    Good to know!

    Oops, nice catch. I updated it and looks like I'm good to go. Wish I didn't have to use a third splitter- always paranoid of too much signal loss... damn tuning adapter.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,984
    2,981
    Nov 25, 2003
    That may be the nicest thing you ever say about it...
     
  18. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,984
    2,981
    Nov 25, 2003
    Super ideal for the segment of your coax that will be MoCA'fied, in my opinion.


    I view the recommendation to place the MoCA filter at the "PoE" likely to be based on ensuring that the MoCA signal can travel throughout the entire home. It's just the simplest solution, not necessarily optimal.

    If you have concerns about anyone else's MoCA signals finding their way onto your unprotected lines and hitting your modem, you could certainly put another MoCA filter back at your PoE. Or, as mentioned previously, you could move the MoCA filter labeled as "POE (A)" up to your PoE (the input to splitter A) without much effect on your MoCA speeds -- using the TiVo "Network Status" screen to measure and verify any difference in MoCA signal quality.


    Well, if you couldn't get Ethernet to your BOLT's location, you'd *have* to allow your MoCA signals to get to your modem and router location, so that you could install a MoCA adapter at that location in order to create your MoCA network.

    But with your setup as it is, there's no need for MoCA in that room (Office?), since you have Ethernet available -- and Gigabit, at that!


    Interference from MoCA shouldn't be an issue for your "modem." Based on the device's model number, TG1672, it's actually a MoCA-capable combo modem/router "gateway" device ("TG" stands for "Touchstone Gateway"), spec'd as having "MoCA 1.1 coax support," so MoCA on the coax shouldn't be a problem for it, and you shouldn't have to worry about any advice you might see about putting a MoCA filter on the input to the modem. (Some other older modems *do* need such protection.) Note that the TG1672 being configured to operate in modem-only mode precludes taking advantage of any of its MoCA features (see here) -- though that doesn't matter to you for two reasons:
    1. you can use your BOLT to create your MoCA network and bridge the traffic;

    2. the BOLT is actually a standard MoCA 2.0 device, capable of 400Mbps throughput, versus the 170Mbps max of a MoCA 1.1 bridge such as the TG1672 -- though you won't realize any benefit until you get another MoCA 2.0 device on the coax, what with the Mini being MoCA 1.1.

    MoCA filters are bidirectional. Can't speak for why the TWC tech would do that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  19. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,984
    2,981
    Nov 25, 2003
    Also, the Gigabit switch to which you're connecting the BOLT is key to ensuring it will be able to hit the maximum MoCA 2.0 speeds if/when you add other MoCA 2.0 devices. So that's good.
     
  20. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,984
    2,981
    Nov 25, 2003
    The bigger issue for me is that the BOLT doesn't allow disabling of the "Overlap Protection" feature, as detailed here. I won't be going anywhere near a new model TiVo that doesn't allow configuration of this option. YMMV...

    p.s. More on 'Overlap Protection,' from the Roamio Viewer's Guide...
    On the BOLT, Overlap Protection is turned on, by default, and is NOT configurable, per the above link.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015

Share This Page

spam firewall

Advertisements