Channel repack has begun, and it's not good!

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by TeamPace, Jul 2, 2018.

  1. Jul 4, 2018 #41 of 382
    dstoffa

    dstoffa Member

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    It's possible that the WDTN fixed their streams (PSIP data) to identify everything that is coming off their stick. Guide data isn't mapped to actual RF frequencies, only virtual channels and call letters. Your Tivo needs to make that map by scanning the airwaves and identifying what each stream is, and mapping those streams to a program guide.

    Your Tivo will continue to wait for a signal on the old frequency unless it finds a reason to rescan for channels. It might just as well think there was a power failure at the old station's transmitter and is simply waiting for the station to come back on-line.

    Your tivo rescans during guided setup. It also scans when you tell it to. In 18 months time, when all these stations move to UHF 31, you'll have to rescan again. I don't think "re-scanning" is part of a nightly update.
     
    dlfl likes this.
  2. Jul 4, 2018 #42 of 382
    JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    Don't tell my Premiere. It has a full guide with 33 OTA stations and I never connected an antenna.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  3. Jul 4, 2018 #43 of 382
    dstoffa

    dstoffa Member

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    Having a full guide and being able to tune / record them are two different things... If you don't have an antenna connected to the Tivo, how are you receiving anything?
     
  4. Jul 4, 2018 #44 of 382
    NorthAlabama

    NorthAlabama tabasco rules

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    which cable operator dropped the ball in your market?
     
  5. Jul 4, 2018 #45 of 382
    JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    I never said I received anything. I have a full OTA guide and stations. My Premiere has never had any contact with an antenna. The idea that call letters are needed is not correct. A channel scan is not required but may find stations missing from what TiVo provides. The PSIP does provide a Program Number (sub-channel) but TiVo doesn't care about anything else. The first time it was posted I let it slide. This time I needed to set the record straight.

    BTW, my Premiere does receive two QAM channels and four vsb channels. One QAM is 480i and one is 1080i, both are DD 2.0 and also in my guide.

    This is with a 50' AGL antenna: TV Fool
     
  6. Jul 4, 2018 #46 of 382
    TonyD79

    TonyD79 Well-Known Member

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    Fios.
     
  7. Jul 4, 2018 #47 of 382
    dstoffa

    dstoffa Member

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    So then what does your Tivo do, if it isn't receiving anything? Do you just have an electronic TV Guide for your OTA market?

    The Tivo still needs to map the guide data you've downloaded to some stream that it receives. It does this with PSIP or Station Calls.
     
  8. Jul 5, 2018 #48 of 382
    Series3Sub

    Series3Sub Well-Known Member

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    And just imagine what it will be like when the REALLY big deadline re-pack day comes! Heaven help us all. If TiVo can't handle these mini-re-packs in a timely manner (I could NOT record some shows because it took days for TiVo to access the new frequencies), I dread the true Re-pack day. Although TiVo is speedy compared to Dish who still have the wrong EPG on an OTA for an earlier re-pack, and Dish requires a re-scan to get the new frequencies for re-pack.
     
  9. Jul 5, 2018 #49 of 382
    TonyD79

    TonyD79 Well-Known Member

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    I think the repack is a rolling date, not a single one. Different markets at different times.
     
  10. Jul 5, 2018 #50 of 382
    jth tv

    jth tv Well-Known Member

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    It took 3 days for KOCE in Los Angeles, did Not require a channel rescan.
    TV Roamio can't program correct PBS channel
    I had noticed Tivo had been playing with the channel list for quite a while, kept on getting messages on my Roamio about it.

    There are about 1,000 stations changing. That sounds like less than a one person job at TiVo if the government has a central database of scheduled frequency change dates. Considering the budget for the repack is in the billions, it would seem the FCC could afford to be organized about it.
     
  11. Jul 5, 2018 #51 of 382
    Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    In the old days we'd just blame this on the data provider. Channel lineup messed up, it's Tribune's fault. Now that TiVo is the data provider this is 100% their fault and they need to get on the ball.
     
  12. Jul 5, 2018 #52 of 382
    dstoffa

    dstoffa Member

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    Yes. There are something like a dozen phases of repack. It can even happen in one market at several different times. A station may elect to move to its new frequency / channel share earlier than its deadline if it doesn't harm a nearby broadcaster.

    Here is what is happening in Dayton, OH. The changes occur at phase 6.

    RabbitEars.Info
     
  13. Jul 5, 2018 #53 of 382
    JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    My Premiere holds about 400GB of programs for the summer drought. It helps me with troubleshooting problems for other TCF members.
    Guided Setup:
    Choose a country.
    Download any updates.
    Select a zipcode.
    download possible providers - select provider
    download initial channel list based on provider/headend.
    If OTA, perform a channel scan.
    download initial 48 hours of guide listings.
    At this point you hit the TiVo button and GS is done.
    No need to access a PSIP or any station. Lack of PSIP ability is the reason this thread (and many more) have been created. TiVo needs a service connection or its clock drifts - no PSIP. TiVo needs to fix physical frequency changes. Yes, it can find stations with a scan, but only TiVo can map those frequencies to a station (and guide data).

    Just read the posts in AVSForum on the DVR+ from Channel Master.

    Tivo not recording NBC show?
    Anyone else having guide isuues that are NOT getting resolved?

    You get the idea.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  14. Jul 5, 2018 #54 of 382
    dstoffa

    dstoffa Member

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    So what you are telling me is that the Tivo actually needs real RF channels to match guide data properly? That's an utter fail on their programming. Why would someone want to add an additional layer of complexity to their software, and introduce more potential points of failure?

    ATSC tuners are designed to create the map from RF to virtual channels / calls. Why have your (guide integration) software create an additional layer of complexity? (Unless this was the quick and dirty way to get the software out the door when the Series 3 premiered....)

    There needs to be more to it.

    I'd love to see someone with a new or lightly loaded Tivo do a factory reset / GS after a repack / channel move and see if starting from scratch results in similar problems as seen by those with existing setups, or everything is perfect.
     
  15. Jul 5, 2018 #55 of 382
    JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    It's TiVo.

    Just read post 1. It says it all.
     
  16. Jul 5, 2018 #56 of 382
    mschnebly

    mschnebly Well-Known Member

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    I've completely stopped recommending TiVo to any of my friends or family. After the guide issues, the new UI, the cable card problems and now channel repacking it's just too much. I cant explain it all away to someone new and expecting more. TiVo used to just work but now it takes work. Checking up on recordings and schedules are more than I want to inflict on anyone. If they come out of all this turmoil with a great product again I'll be back on board but for now....
     
  17. Jul 5, 2018 #57 of 382
    dstoffa

    dstoffa Member

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    Yes but that's what is puzzling. If the Tivo actually assigns guide data to physical channels / subchannels instead of calls or PSIP, that is an utter fail in their programming. The programming should have been written to mate guide data with virtual channels.... not physical frequencies. Then they wouldn't have to do anything at this point, just have users rescan after a repack to allow the ATSC tuner to rebuild the map...

    Has anyone ever reverse engineered the data that comes down to a Tivo (for a lineup) during guided setup? What about how programming data is sent?
     
  18. Jul 5, 2018 #58 of 382
    JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    Let's go back to our roots. Cable. TiVo pre-dates the PSIP. All we needed was a translator (cable card) to change the QAM channels to display channels. With OTA, the DMA gives TiVo enough data to build a database of physical channels and their virtual channels. No need for local computation. The guide (lineup and listings) are 100% downloaded. We know, from recent clock issues, that a TiVo gets time from one of several servers. PSIP time is sometimes inaccurate. It was the lack of PSIP time that killed the Sony DHG. It's the ability to use the PSIP that keeps the CM DVR+ alive since TiVo (Rovi) stopped being the guide supplier.

    A TiVo does use the PSIP's sub-channel data (I think) which must be maintained. When it's not, you get wrong guide data. I have received updates to my OTA Premiere almost weekly. I say weekly since I only give it power on weekends. But its OTA guide is really a stretch. I have stations from NY, Philly, Harrisburg PA, Delaware and my actual DMA: Scranton-Wilkes-Barre. That's 33 stations plus their subchannels. I've not had one issue with the repack and I know my PBS station moved. One advantage to a small responsive cable company.

    When you look at the Channels/Signal Strength the physical channel frequency is displayed. You could say it's measured. I say it is hard coded. If it was measured, wouldn't the channel strength diagnostic be sequential? Since I use a Premiere I get four analog channels (just color bars). My TV is connected to my cable. If I lose my "cable", I switch to my TV for a second opinion. Just because a channel is encrypted doesn't mean it doesn't display in Diagnostics either.

    Did I mention my Hydra Roamio OTA doesn't have a cable card? Please understand, I am not an expert. Most of my experience is rather old. But I read a lot. And I'm old. :)
     
  19. Jul 5, 2018 #59 of 382
    dstoffa

    dstoffa Member

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    I understand how it could have gotten to this point. But it didn't have to. Tivo preceeds ATSC for Series 1 and 2 models, but I think the Series 3 programmers may have erred when they coded the system for ATSC. Maybe they decided to take a shortcut back then and mimic what was done for NTSC and marry programming to a physical channel. And that decision probably carries through to this day...

    I would have thought that:
    1. The DMA you select for OTA gets you a list of virtual channel numbers / subchannels, and pulls down the guide data for the market.
    2. The ATSC tuner goes through its own routine, and scans for tv signals. It creates a map of physical channels to virtual channels.
    3. The Tivo OS would engage the tuners to tune to the virtual channels based on programs selected by the user.

    I guess this assumption is incorrect.

    Does anyone remember what happend in 2009 when the analog broadcasts were shut down, and the digital channels all moved around?
     
  20. Jul 5, 2018 #60 of 382
    NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    For anyone wanting to know when their market, and which particular stations within their market, will be repacked, you can go to the following FCC site to see the transition schedule:
    Transition Schedule

    As you'll see in the chart there, there are 10 transition phases. Phase 1 is to be completed by 11/30/18; Phase 5 by 9/6/19; and Phase 10 by 7/3/20.

    The above link only shows you the phase-based timeline, it doesn't tell you which markets/stations are associated with each phase. For that, you can click the following link to download a CSV file from the FCC. You can open this file in pretty much any spreadsheet application, such as Microsoft Excel, Google Sheets (free), Apple Numbers, etc:
    https://www.fcc.gov/sites/default/files/ia-regions-stations_sortable.csv

    Each individual station is listed on a separate row of the spreadsheet. You'll probably want to sort by column B, which lists the market for each station, so that you can see all of your area's stations grouped together.

    In some markets, not all affected stations will be repacked in the same phase. For example, here in Nashville, 9 stations are slated for repack. Eight of them are in Phase 6 but one is in Phase 10.
     
    Mikeguy likes this.

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