Can I run my Tivo without a landline?

Discussion in 'TiVo Series 1 - UK' started by MarkH, Sep 6, 2007.

  1. blindlemon

    blindlemon tivoheaven.co.uk

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    Pete was here :D

    Same thing happened to me in another thread a few days ago and I got told off for responding to his OT jibes :eek:
     
  2. alextegg

    alextegg Tall Member

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    You read straight through my subtle questioning ;)
     
  3. TCM2007

    TCM2007 Active Member

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    No, they don't. One offers the facility to use your phone in your country of origin for local calls; the other is offering the additional service of being able to use your phone worldwide. This is of significant extra value. Pricing depends on value to the customer, not the cost of service provision.

    Vodafone UK pay the Spanish provider to allow your phone to work in Spain because they see that as being of extra value to you. They naturally want you to pay for something which is of value to you. If the only money that changed hands was a local call charge in Spain, there would be nothing for Vodafone UK to even cover their extra costs, let alone make the extra money for providing you with an additional service.

    Of course the level of these fees takes the P - largely due to lack of visibility of the charges - but it ridiculous to argue that the Spanish telecom provider and Vodafone UK should provide you with the valuable service of global roaming at no additional charge to yourself.
     
  4. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    I can get the very valuable service of global petrol tank filling from Shell without paying any more at all than the locals do for the privilege. For several years they even used to give me points on the same Shell loyalty card scheme.

    The cost of a mobile call is high enough that there ought to be enough there for most it to go to the foreign network operator (who is actually providing the service) with a very small kickback to your UK phone company for introducing the business.

    Instead of which your UK phone company tries to charge you 5 times as much as what the local company is getting for handling your call and about 10 times his usual UK rate for the call.

    This is what is generally known in economics as an anti competitive cartel.

    By the way I can use my regular UK car to consume the petrol on Shell's overseas network of filling stations so how does that vary from using my UK mobile phone on a foreign mobile phone transmitter network? I don't have to hire a local Spanish car to get petrol at the same price as the locals do.

    With respect I think you have all been brainwashed in to thinking roaming is something special that demands a premium where it is only actually a way for your home UK network to get a cut on your overseas calls that they would lose altogether if you went off and got an overseas SIM card. So if the market was competitive and there won't major structural imperfections in it (cost of buying a local SIM card and knowing where to buy one and how to install it and language barriers) I would actually expect the cost of roaming to be no more than using a SIM card locally, especially for outgoing calls to the UK and local calls within the country.
     
  5. cwaring

    cwaring VM Tivo User

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    Knaresboroug...

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    This was my point; I think :D

    My (UK) O2 SIM works with Movistar (I think) in Spain but I'm sure the cost for me to call (or text) the UK is more than it would be with one of Movistar's owm SIMs.

    It's just that Movistar have allowed O2 users to access their masts (not for free I assume ;) to make calls. Saves O2 putting up their own I guess :)

    That was "subtle"? :p
     
  6. TCM2007

    TCM2007 Active Member

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    That analogy doesn't stack, as Shell needs do nothing to have Spanish petrol work in your car. If when abroad you had to buy petrol by getting a Spanish petrol station to arrnage with a UK petrol station to provide you with petrol once you have paid the UK petrol station, and the UK petrol station then sent the money to the Spanish petrol station, you might be a bit closer.

    I pay nothing per minute provided I don't exceed myy monthly allowance 9which i never do). How does the Spanish telco get a share of that?

    No it isn't. Cartel has a very specific meaning, and that isn't it. But I agree that the prices are too high. If there was proper tranparency of pricing, eg I knew which of the half dozen networks I can connect in any given country to is cheapest, then the market would work its magic.

    I've already explained that that analogy doesn't work. You car naturally works on Spanish petrol. You phone does not naturally work with Spanish mobile phone system. It works because your phone provider and the Spanish have contracts, share usage information and billing systems in two different currencies.

    I think it's a service for which I'm prepared to pay. The price is too high, I agree, but the idea that it is not a service worth paying for is daft.
     
  7. cwaring

    cwaring VM Tivo User

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    I love conspiracy theories. Don't believe a word of them, but they're great for a laugh :)
     
  8. TCM2007

    TCM2007 Active Member

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    Much like Pete. ;)
     
  9. cwaring

    cwaring VM Tivo User

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    Knaresboroug...
    You might think that.... etc :p
     
  10. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    You must be talking Vodafone Passport in which case you overlook the 75p flat charge per incoming and outgoing call, a fair chunk of which goes to the Spanish telco. Still I don't suppose a few 75ps would matter much to a man in your position. ;) :p

    Only because they designed it in that deliberately anti-competitive way and actually it does naturally work with the Spanish phone system as another GSM phone its just the terms of the roaming agreements that are unnatural and defy the normal rules of the free market.

    If mobile phone credit could be topped up a phone equivalent of something as homogenous and universally available as petrol and then the networks competed against each other to persuade the customer to make every call they can with them and they couldn't tell if you were a local or a foreign customer then the price would be the same for everyone and it would only be where you are calling that affected the price.

    The only legitimate part of roaming charges is for the incoming call because it is forwarded internationally but the charge should reflect the actual costs of carrying out that operation plus a fair margin. At the moment all the main mobile companies agree to rob each other's customers when they roam in a way that doesn't relate to their costs because they then put most of that robbery charge in their pocket. It all relies on customers only being away a couple of weeks a year and the cost of the call not being clearly stated before it is made or taken by the customer.

    By the way make sure with Vodafone Passport you aren't calling 084 or 087 UK numbers as they will cost you 75p per minute or £45 per hour and won't be in your bundled minites. :eek:
     
  11. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    Coming firmly back on topic this News announcement has just appeared on the www.ispreview.co.uk website:-

    So it seems the equipment to allow you to use your Tivo with a 3G mobile phone data connection via a router and without a traditional landline definitely exists. The only issue is the price of 3G data services and the data caps even on the latest offering from Three. You had better now download any tv programs or videoss on a regular basis if you use such a service.

    Give it 3 another 6 or 12 months and perhaps Three's pricing and data caps will be more head to head with traditional broadband services..............

    Coming back to the Billion router I would have thought than an auto rollover to using a dialup connection as backup is likely to be more useful as if you are using a 3G connection on your router you may well not have an ADSL connection to fall back to.
     
  12. TCM2007

    TCM2007 Active Member

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    I'll ignore the provocation.

    You misunderstand. You proposed that a Spanish call should be charged as a UK call. I pay a flat rate for all UK calls up to £35-worth. As I don't make any payment for any individual call, how can the Spanish Telco have a share of nothing?



    Absolute gibberish. To make a UK phone work in Spain requires that two companies in two countries running two different currencies have a system for reporting usage, sharing credit information and transferring funds. If you think that's zero-cost or trivial you are dafter than I thought.
     
  13. alextegg

    alextegg Tall Member

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    Oh the irony...

    :p :p :p ROFLMAO !!!
     
  14. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    But most people have phones deliberately locked by their UK network provider to stop them using a SIM from their foreign competitor when they are abroad. They do this to stop you consuming the normal priced product from the local provider for anti competitive reasons.

    The whole thing starts with handset costs being subsidised by the manufacturers in the mobile phone networks in the UK and then hidden major ripoff charges after sale being needed to recoup that. If the regulator stopped the first anti competitive thing happening and made handset subsidies illegal and made it illegal to bar a Uk network from roaming to another network then all the other bads would not follow.

    As to your £35 that only covers all your calls in the UK and not the EU too. Even on Vodafone Passport there is a flat 75p charge every time a call is made or received. Everything else is out of the bundled minutes.
     
  15. cwaring

    cwaring VM Tivo User

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    I know they're (usually ;)) locked from using another network's SIM here in the UK. I don't know whether any thought at all is given to SIMs from other countries :)
     
  16. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    They lock them against use by any other SIM card other than one for that UK network. So this includes overseas networks too.

    After all if you you could use an overseas SIM card on a new Pay As You Go phone that would be where they would lose the most money of all on your calls. ;)
     
  17. cwaring

    cwaring VM Tivo User

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    Erm... yeah. I'm really gonna buy a (eg) Spanish SIM to use in the UK :rolleyes:
     
  18. Pete77

    Pete77 New Member

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    I meant if you used a Spanish SIM in your UK phone when you are in Spain instead of their UK network SIM they will lose lots of money if you are a chat and textaholic.

    Ditto if you could insert a SIM for one of the other four UK networks in your subsidised Pay As You Go handset in the UK they would lose lots of money as well.

    In general the Pay As You Go operators only let you unlock your handset after 12 months and some also charge you a significant fee to do so while some like Vodafone will do it for free after the first 12 months are up. But they will only unlock it if you understand about locking in the first place and ask them to unlock it.

    Jo Average won't know about such things and just say "bloody Spanish SIM cards are no good - wouldn't work in my phone"- and blame it on the Spanish network operator.
     
  19. TCM2007

    TCM2007 Active Member

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    The locking is to stop you switching providers in the UK easily with a subsidised handset.

    Except the "handsets costing £00s because there's no subsidy" bad...

    No such thing as a free lunch.

    I'm not with Vodafone, so i wouldn't know, but I though your whole point was that there should not be a 75p or any other charge. :confused:

    Your obsession with phone charging minutiae is mildly quaint.
     
  20. TCM2007

    TCM2007 Active Member

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    Most High Streets have a shop which will unlock your phone for £5-£10. Some phones can be done over the web.
     

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