CableLabs trying to block TivoToGo & MultiRoom Viewing?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by Justin Thyme, Jan 6, 2006.

  1. Jan 6, 2006 #1 of 44
    Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    Now, I am sure that Megazone is reporting this more accurately than PCMag, but the what the PCMag article drove home was that Cablelabs actually possibly have a legal case.

    Now, as for technicals, my understanding is that cablecos use 480x480 vanilla Mpeg2's (post decrypt). Fine- maybe the SA3 has to strip some Cableco Horse manure from the headers or strip some nonsense streams, but Certainly nothing like transcode, right? Sure maybe they don't do downresing of HD to an SA2, or oops maybe Cablecos sometimes are xmitting shows in res's that don't match the popular DVD supported high and low resolutions that Tivo supports. In that case, you would have to transcode at a TivoServer running Tivo Desktop. So no immediate MRV, but you could basically background transcode all of these on the server then reload back to T3- so they would all be ready for MRV.

    The big deal is the legal battle.

    Why are we not surprized there when threat of legal action greets practically every Tivo innovation. Ok- I expected a fight over HDTV.

    But over TivoToGo and Multiroom viewing of content? Consider any Standard Definition show that I can record on an SA2 machine from a cable STB- I can TTG or MRV that to any other Tivo. BUT if I happened to record the same show using a T3 box, then somehow I shouldn't be allowed to TTG or MRV it.

    No invitation to ridicule such a stance. Let's just explore it. Does anyone known / can anyone here imagine the basis for CableLabs' argument.

    But jeez- what about those
     
  2. Jan 6, 2006 #2 of 44
    nhaigh

    nhaigh Member

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    Lawrencevill...
    Does this mean a Cable card DVD Recorder (Blu-ray etc) is not going to be legal? That would be a device that can record the HD stream and make it portable - worse so than MRV.

    What about the DirecTV MCE connection and many other inovations anounced. Are any of them legal?

    MRV is at least locked into the account of the owner - its not like I can MRV to my friends TiVo accross the road is it. Surely that should make it within the real of "Fair Use".
     
  3. Jan 6, 2006 #3 of 44
    TiVoPhish

    TiVoPhish New Member

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    From what I heard from another company, some of the MR capabilities also came down to home wiring being a partial limitation CURRENTLY... but I think mpeg4 was mentioned as a partial solution to that (going on memory here... been trying to absorb too much info in the last few days ;))

    Don't doubt at all there's a legal battle too. Seems that's happening on a lot of fronts :p
     
  4. Jan 6, 2006 #4 of 44
    jfh3

    jfh3 Active Member

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    Well, if there are restrictions on MRV/TTG with the Series 3, then it's appeal drops considerably.

    I'd love to hear more on this - can't imagine why CableLabs would have any say in this.
     
  5. Jan 6, 2006 #5 of 44
    Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    No.

    Not at all.

    Not one scintilla of a chance.

    That it has anything to do with a wiring issue or is mpeg4 related.
     
  6. Jan 6, 2006 #6 of 44
    nhaigh

    nhaigh Member

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    Lawrencevill...
    Me to. Without the MRV and TTG it's no better than the DirecTiVo I have now. With that limitaition I guess I may be heading back to Analogue land. I havent yet invested in HDTV and this may well be enough to make me think twice about it. MRV/TTG has more value to me than HDTV. It's those features that have me longing for the Series 3. More so than the dual tuners.

    What if they have a version of the Series three that is only SD?
     
  7. Jan 6, 2006 #7 of 44
    Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    I think that is exactly the impact the Cable industry wants this controversy to have. This is pretty much par for the course from them
    It's because Tivo must have a CableLabs license to sell the T3.

    However, CableLabs' legal team's interpretation of their rights may not square with FCC rulings on the matter. There will likely be several letters submitted to the FCC on this question. Luckily, there is plenty of time before next christmas season to work it out.
     
  8. Jan 6, 2006 #8 of 44
    TiVoPhish

    TiVoPhish New Member

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    From the way I read what I read it had to do with the fact the MR HD requires transfering a LOT more data, and if there's not quick way to do so, it becomes a real usability issue. As I said, it was in reference to another company so I don't know how their equipment works, but home wiring WAS an issue and mpeg4 was part of the solution -- I believe the difference may be that the way their system works is that one box in the house in a "server" and the rest are not.

    But I really don't wish to argue with you again. I was merely making a suggestion.
     
  9. Jan 6, 2006 #9 of 44
    Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    Look- if you post something that is utterly wrong, I am compelled to correct you, otherwise someone that doesn't know any better might think what you were saying has some veracity. It is nothing personal.
     
  10. nhaigh

    nhaigh Member

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    Lawrencevill...
    Maybe they should look at streaming the MRV content in real time, that way they are not making a copy and there can be no issue.
     
  11. TiVoPhish

    TiVoPhish New Member

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    nhaigh -- that is exactly what I'm talking about and what this other manufacturer is doing, which is why bandwidth becomes an issue, and mpeg4 part of the solution.

    Justin -- nothing changes the fact that the file-sizes and transfer speeds become an issue the bigger the files get (and HD recordings create much bigger files). It's not utterly wrong to think so or state so. When mpeg4 is a model that allows for smaller file sizes, it's not utterly wrong to suggest as a partial solution if transfer speed is at least part of the issue.
     
  12. ZeoTiVo

    ZeoTiVo I can't explain

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    remain calm citizens - this is not as big as it seems
    I agree that Megazone was closer to the facts, certainly he was closer to the people in the know, sitting in the back room of the booth with them and all.

    and any cable lab restrictions would apply to the HD of premium channels like HBO or DiscoveryHD or what not - which guess what, can already restrict MRV or TTG via macrovision license anyway. That is all this becomes. ANd at 10 gig for one hour I am not looking to copy HD shows around all that much either. In fact this is a reason HD is something I can wait to get into. More horsepower will be needed to do anything other than record it to the DVR and play it back from that DVR. Sure wont be porting HD to a PSP anyway that is for sure

    so this will not be a blanket no MRV or TTG for anything but just a continuation of the restrictions we saw a little of on SD HBO ocntent but HBO cares about the HD files gettiing around plus the digital recording restrictions can not be defeated by a simple VBI filter on the analog signal so they feel like they did something restriciting the digital HD recording -
    and this gets to how I see any legal battle pan out. TiVo has already worked with the FCC on MRV and TTG and the enforcement of restricitons via macrovision. The FCC has already said it is satisfied with TiVo's due diligence and I don;t think cable labs can add much more to that.
     
  13. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    Precisely my point. Nothing changes the fact that the T3 uses electricity and the technical problem could be that the cord is unplugged. As we know, Electricity is a form of energy which is related to mass and time. Found some interesting reading here. And this is all fundamental to Time shifting.

    It could be a partial solution anyway.

    The complete solution is probably to have Sci-Atl build the SA3 for Tivo. Besides their power cords, have Sci-Atl use their nifty UI too.

    We as Tivo Junkies are all pretty sad this day, that Tivo could not solve the the problems with Mass and Energy coefficients. Did I spell that right? Ok, maybe someone technical can correct my partial understanding of the issues.

    Too bad. The cable companies really seem to have this all figured out. At least to me.
     
  14. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    This was my first take on it. And I still think that is the case. But I really would like to understand the basis for the CableLabs argument. We probably won't have a clue until we see a letter to the FCC from Tivo or CableLabs on the issue.

    I think it would be useful to narrow down the set of likely cases by excluding the unlikely ones. I don't see how any of these things could be affected by the controversy:

    Any T3 to T3 transfer (both are CableLabs devices- if they are cablelabs certified secure, and both are paying service fees to the cableco- what motive is there for any objection?).

    Any T2 to T3 transfer.

    Any T3 to T2 (or PC) transfer that:
    • By FCC regulation may not be encrypted or have copy flags attached to them. (eg network content or anything else that is also broadcast OTA).
    • recordings T3 made from OTA

    So what does that leave? Well here are the representatives of sets I can think of the remaining T3 to T2 transfer possible issues:
    1. SD Discovery channel recordings. (not broadcast)
    2. CBS HD channel (technical- the SA2 cannot display the resolution- workaround- downres on PC, otherwise ok to copy because it was OTA too)
    3. HBO. We all know about this. Content owner says no copy. SA2 can't copy it at all, so this is nothing new.
    4. TNT-HD Not OTA, so not covered by FCC rulling. Hoever MPAA does not want movies which might play on TNT to be copyable without restrictions.
    What else could CableLabs be concerned with.
     
  15. gastrof

    gastrof Hubcaps r in fashion

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    This whole thing, especially the multi-room thing, is moronic.

    "Yes, if you have more than one TiVo in your home and record the same thing on all of them, we'll let you watch the content in various rooms, but don't you DARE move it from one TiVo to another so you can watch it in another room. That wouldn't be right. Please don't confuse us with references to moving a VHS tape from a machine in one room to another. We haven't figured out a counter-argument and will be sorely miffed if you do."

    Some people need a hobby.
     
  16. TiVoPhish

    TiVoPhish New Member

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    Because you'd rather be arrogant you're still missing my point. First off let me quote myself in case you were too blind to miss it

    Second, I alluded to the fact the other things COULD be factors as well.

    Even if you're doing the transfer via ethernet or wireless, which would you rather transfer? A 5 gig file or a 1 gig file? A 1.5 gig file or a 300 mb file? Pretty easy decision if you ask me.

    If the ability to transfer from one box to another is going to happen soon by any way other than ESP, file sizes on HD MIGHT be part of the issue -- and in all your glory you still can't deny it.

    Thank god there are nicer people around here than you, that have more patience than you, that aren't all just trying to be know-it-alls like you, and who are actually willing to participate in discussion without being a condescending jerk.
     
  17. jfh3

    jfh3 Active Member

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    Yup, that's what I thought when the FCC ruling came out.

    Cool.

    Citizen remaining calm here ... :)
     
  18. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    Recall that the FCC ruling about TIvoToGo was not a definitive blessing of TivoToGo now and forever... but was in response to a dustup on the question of what copy protections were appropriate or OTA digital copying. The rulling didn't allow TTG'ing of anything you could record from any carrier, it covered recording of material that had gone out in an over the air transmission. This applied to cable transmission of the same feeds.

    My understanding was it was specifically meant to address the issue of flags and OTA content, and that it didn't cover anything else. For example DT:

    I don't believe DT was refering to what a consumer regards as premium these days: HBO and Showtime, but premium in the older classic sense- anything beyond Basic cable OTA content- so premium would include Filipino channel, Discovery, Hallmark etc. I can record those using an SA2, even though FCC didn't say that I could. Does FCC have jurisdiction? If they do and Tivo could bring a case, would it be wise given Chairman Kevin Martin's "let's let the robber barons run it" inclinations.

    After all- folks like John Rigas are in a better position to make technology decisions, and it is in their economic interest to make the best technology choices otherwise competition would force them out of their jobs.

    Right?
     
  19. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    A Series 2 unit will play almost any MPEG-2 format stream. It doesn't need to be DVD compliant. In fact the whole reason the DVDTiVo units can't burn programs recorded on standard Series 2 units is because standard Series 2 units record in non-DVD compliant formats. (audio at 32KHz and video at 320x480, 480x480 or 520x480) Which means provided the program on the S3 TiVo is in MPEG-2 format, and on SD resolution, it should able to be transfered to an S2 unit no problem. The only limitations should be HD content, non-MPEG-2 content (such as downloaded MPEG-4) and anything with DRM limitations applied. And when you're talking about MRVing between two S3 units, or TTGing to a PC, the only limitations should be programs with DRM restrictions.

    Dan
     
  20. Test

    Test Well-Known Member

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    was that you giving the thumbs up in the other thread?

    all those torrents flying around that are under a gig look really good for being super compressed and almost all say HD, how is that done?
     

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