Bolt Hard Drive Upgrade Choice

Discussion in 'TiVo Bolt DVR/Streamer' started by GregMacMan, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. Dec 2, 2019 #641 of 668
    My Cape is a Recliner

    My Cape is a Recliner Member

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    So what is this based on? Is this not a fair comparison without knowing the details of this test? Am I wrong or is a DVR drive going to be put through more stringent use? Wouldn't you say a normal hard drive, in a computer like this test probably was, is like grandma driving to church on sunday. A dvr drive, (especially when TiVo is recording more than what you want it to), is heavy foot cruising to pedal to the floor lets see how fast it can go. These numbers are most likely not comparing the same stress-level conditions.
     
  2. bobfrank

    bobfrank Active Member

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    I'm going to play with TE4 for a couple of days first. I'm recording some new shows and copying some from my, TE3 Roameo, to the new Bolt. From my first short time with it, I've noticed that there are a lot fewer tiles and more text menus than I remember from my first exposure. I'll report back later with more.
     
  3. Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    From my recollection from the outside, TiVo moderated TE4 some after its debut, to make it less comical.*

    * As in, with a comics-like interface.
     
  4. ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    A smart guy like you should be able to use Google to find the Backblaze reports, which are freely available online.
     
  5. My Cape is a Recliner

    My Cape is a Recliner Member

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    You sound like a real piece of work. Get over yourself. I came here to learn and try to help. I proposed a question, and it sounds like you are just trying to show off. Piss off.
     
  6. elorimer

    elorimer Member

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    The Backblaze reports are very interesting and useful to me and while a completely different use case are helpful in understanding drive failure.

    First, obviously, these are 3.5 inch consumer drives not 2.5 inch. Second, these stats are over a year old and the last mostly comparable stuff we have since BB has largely moved away from drives in the sizes we might mostly use. Third, I suspect Tivos are mostly writing, while BB is mostly reading: once the data is laid down the sector isn't written to again until it is deleted or rebuilt elsewhere. BB says they have recently increased their scrubs to be as frequent as possible consistent with drive performance, so it is always rereading. I doubt a Tivo ever does a scrub. Fourth, I think they are failing a drive based on the scrubs rather than an actual use of the data.

    It does make me think HomeRun is on a better path by separating the low-failure rate of the electronics with the high failure rate of the spinning bits. I wish my Tivos would be able to move data off to my FreeNAS servers and use them from there.
     
  7. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    There have been posts indicating that files transferred from TE3 to TE4 will stop playing after ten minutes. I have a few. It's random.

    Can't transfer recordings from Roamio to Bolt

    Transferring from Roameo to new Bolt - problems, and how?
     
  8. bobfrank

    bobfrank Active Member

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  9. JoeKustra

    JoeKustra in the other Alabama TCF Club

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    If you're curious, on the TE3 box, check:
    Setting & Messages
    Network Settings
    Network Troubleshooting
    Transfer History

    I'm curious what your transfer speed is showing. Thanks.
     
  10. snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

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    I'm not convinced that anything conclusive can be said about Toshiba drives from a sampling of only 191 drives.
     
    aaronwt likes this.
  11. bobfrank

    bobfrank Active Member

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    79.80 Mb/s
     
    JoeKustra likes this.
  12. ej42137

    ej42137 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your very helpful reply! But unfortunately I did not find any "solution" in your post, and I felt that your argument was poorly reasoned. Please read elorimer's post above for an example of a better discussion of the issue.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 5:13 PM
  13. bobfrank

    bobfrank Active Member

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    Other than a strip of tiles at the bottom of the Home screen they seem to have all been removed. The UI is a lot more like TE3 than it was in the beginning. I don't like not having the Live Guide or not being able to upload video files from my PC. Using the back button instead of the left arrow is a pain. Not just the muscle memory, but the fact that I have to look to make sure I've got the back button. I can get the left arrow blindfolded. I do like the ease of turning closed captions on vs TE3.

    Still not used to lots of things, but I think I could live with them if I didn't have a choice. I'm still not switching to TE4 until I don't have a choice. Hopefully in the future they'll reinstate uploading files from the PC.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019 at 5:41 PM
    Mikeguy likes this.
  14. My Cape is a Recliner

    My Cape is a Recliner Member

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    No it wasn't a solution, It was a question to try to clarify. "So what is this based on?" Was the first sentence, and should have tipped you off. You clearly go in with your own trash intentions.

    Did YOU read the post you are saying I should? It doesn't contradict, it continues it.
     
  15. BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there is definitely a software/firmware change in the Tivo which causes compatibility issues, but not reliability issues.

    IMO, the reliability issue is that the Bolt+ with their 2.5" 3GB drives are having more problems than usual for a Tivo. So if one gets or has a Tivo+, they should think about replacing that drive.
     
  16. BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    That is the purpose of the confidence interval in the table (although there should be a percentage along with it, like 95% or 98%). It gives the range in which the actual failure rate lies. You'll observe that the range is wider for lower sample sizes and smaller for higher sample sizes.

    Someone else wondered about what "test" Backblaze uses. They are a cloud backup company. It's not a scripted or unscripted test, just a real world use case involving servers.
     
  17. BobCamp1

    BobCamp1 Well-Known Member

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    In my experience, 2.5" drives are just as reliable as their 3.5" counterparts if used in the same way. But they are not. A 2.5" drive is usually installed in a notebook which gets knocked around a lot and suffers temperature changes. That environment makes any hard drive less reliable. Plus, all large capacity CMR hard drives are at their density limits, which means that a 2.5" 3 TB CMR hard drive will be less reliable than a 3.5" 3 TB CMR hard drive.

    I don't know how much BB writes vs. reads or how to compare that to a Tivo. I don't suspect we'll get a similar table from Tivo owners, so this is the best data we have. I don't think the age matters much, as (commonly-used) hard drive design hasn't made any large leaps this past year. You don't have to throw out data just because it doesn't perfectly match your use case.

    I agree that the Tivo+ and anyone in general that ties a large capacity drive to a Tivo is asking for trouble. Keep the daily grinder hard drive small and backup shows to a separate, independent hard drive to create a library there. I understand that due to copy protection, some people can transfer hardly any of their shows. For these people, a 3.5" drive connected to their Bolt makes sense.
     
  18. elorimer

    elorimer Member

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    My guesses: both Tivo and BB are constantly writing, and Tivo doesn't read the data again unless you choose to watch a show. If you or it delete a show Tivo might write to those sectors again. BB, on the other hand, is striping a file across 17+3 drives, and as often as it is set to, reads the data and recomputes the checksum value. If it gets an error, it rebuilds the file from the remaining drives. Those reads contribute to the error statistics and lead to concluding a drive has failed and needs to be replaced. With over 120,000 drives, that is four or so a day. Having increased the scrub interval, BB is thinking drives will be replaced earlier than otherwise, but I think BB is failing a drive earlier than Tivo would.

    I agree the age of the BB data isn't that important. I just meant that BB is moving on, and we won't see current stats for Tivo-class drives (no more WD, no more <8TB).
     
  19. RTNDO128

    RTNDO128 New Member

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    Is there a readily available 2.5" drive that will work on TE4? I encountered an issue while replacing my dying 500GB factory drive with a 1TB Crucial MX500. I got stuck on "starting up" on TE4, but the same drive works fine once I downgraded to TE3.
     
  20. bobfrank

    bobfrank Active Member

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    Update. My previous answer regarding transfer speed was from a TE3 Roameo to a TE4 Bolt using Tivo.com to start the transfer.

    I've since upgraded the Bolt to TE3 and am now transferring from the TE3 Roameo to the TE3 Bolt. Instead of using Tivo.com I'm starting the transfer from the Bolt directly. The transfer speed is not 116.32 Mb/s. Much better.

    I don't know what the speeds should be or what would be considered good or bad. Since you asked, I assume you might know. What do you think about those speeds?
     
    Mikeguy likes this.

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