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Bolt and Mini MOCA troubles after move

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by justkdue, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. Oct 4, 2018 #1 of 10
    justkdue

    justkdue New Member

    7
    1
    Oct 4, 2018
    First, I will apologize if this is too lengthy - I think the "details" could be significant towards a resolution. I have a TiVo Bolt and a Tivo Mini both of which have worked fine for a little over a year while connected using MOCA. Recently I moved, hooking everything up exactly the same (?) and can not get it to work - here are the "setup details":

    What is the same:
    • TiVo Bolt 500MB about one year old, connected to coax, also using an Ethernet bridge for communication to the TiVo mini - worked fine
    • Tivo Mini (the current model) about one year old, connected to coax
    • Router is an ASUS AC1500 type router (same)
    • I am NOT using a Point of Entry filter - but I never used one before, so I don't think (?) that is the cause of the problem now?
    What is different:
    • Old cable service was through WOW - cable connected directly to Bolt, cable card installed and paired. New location cable service is Spectrum - requires tuning adapter (THIS unit is fully working now as connected) NOTE: I have a split of the incoming coax with one leg going to the Bolt and the other leg going to the tuning adapter - by itself, this unit seems working fine
    • Old location was a house, I could "see" all wiring and connections - new location is an apartment, I don't have access to the "closet" where all of the connections are
    • The current cable modem is a DOCSIS 3.1 UBee E31U2V1 and my service is supposed to be 100MB - my previous cable modem (still have available) was an SB6183 also with 100MB service
    What is wrong:
    • Before splitting off the tuning adapter, MOCA was unable to "see" the other unit at all. Once I realized the need to split off the tuning adapter, now MOCA connects quickly and the Bolt and the mini "see" each other, but at the point where an attempt is made to communicate from the mini to the network via the Bolt, it locks up my internet (kills the internet completely for my home network - the cable modem changes to blinking instead of locked on and I lost both internet and phone on all devices). If I physically remove the Bolt from the cable, the internet comes back immediately.
    Other information:
    • Where the cable comes in the apartment, I am using a Spectrum provided splitter and on the label it says 5 MHz to 1005 MHz ... (both at the point of entry, and also the second splitter where the tuning adapter and TiVo are). One leg of the split goes to my cable modem, the other leg goes to the Bolt and tuning adapter splitter. I have been reading about splitters that support 1650 MHz up to 2.4 GHz, and intend to try that, but have not yet been able to test.
    • I do not have the ability to make a physical Ethernet connection between the two devices and my router, so MOCA seems to be my option.

    I'm stumped! I like challenges like this, and I consider myself a pretty good troubleshooting person - but in this case, I'm not quite sure what to try next (other than the 1650 MHz splitter)

    Any helpful suggestion would be appreciated!
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  2. Oct 4, 2018 #2 of 10
    kpeters59

    kpeters59 Well-Known Member

    1,236
    230
    Jun 19, 2007
    See what happens if you try a higher MoCA Channel/Frequency.

    (But first note your MoCA Levels in Network Diagnostics...)

    -KP
     
    justkdue likes this.
  3. Oct 4, 2018 #3 of 10
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    11,759
    1,532
    Nov 25, 2003
    Quick thoughts before digging further:
    • You *will* want a “PoE” MoCA filter installed, but you’ll likely need a Spectrum tech to do so since it will involve accessing that central wiring cabinet for the building;
    • The modem instability sounds like a DOCSIS 3.1 modem that reacts poorly when MoCA signals are present. Several options or troubleshooting steps...
      • With MoCA off (Mini disconnected or off) check and report the frequencies in use by your modem for the downstream and upstream Internet connections. (Primarily looking for whether the Internet connection is using frequencies above 1002 MHz.)
      • If the modem is not using frequencies above 1002 MHz, install a MoCA filter on the modem’s coax input.
      • If the modem *IS* using frequencies above 1002 MHz, you can try using a different MoCA channel, at a frequency outside the DOCSIS 3.1 range ... above 1218 MHz. (If no alternate MoCA channel works, a dedicated coax line for the modem may be required.)

    References:
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
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  4. Oct 4, 2018 #4 of 10
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    11,759
    1,532
    Nov 25, 2003
    I don’t know what the selectable channels are on a BOLT (which has standard MoCA 2.0 functionality), but here are the TiVo MoCA channel numbers and associated center frequencies from a Roamio Pro (sporting MoCA 1.1):

    MoCA 1.1 channels and associated frequencies:
    15: 1150 MHz
    17: 1200 MHz
    19: 1250 MHz
    21: 1300 MHz

    23: 1350 MHz
    25: 1400 MHz
    27: 1450 Mhz
    29: 1500 MHz​

    In this MoCA 1.1 scenario, channel 21 or above may be able to coexist with DOCSIS 3.1 — assuming the modem doesn’t object (I.e. freak out).
     
    justkdue likes this.
  5. Oct 5, 2018 #5 of 10
    justkdue

    justkdue New Member

    7
    1
    Oct 4, 2018
    Success! A huge thank you for the suggestions of additional things to check - I have not been able to do ALL of them, but a combination of a couple of them has my TiVo mini up and running without killing my internet...

    What I did (possibly not in order, due to ease of access or not):
    • I changed the MOCA channel to a higher channel #25 - but the internet still fizzled out, however, I left the settings on this channel #25
    • Next, I replaced the (2) splitters that I have access to with ones that are "up to 2.4 GHz" compliant, then tried to configure again - IT WORKED!
    So possibly a combination of the higher channel AND the proper splitter specification resolved the problem? I haven't gone back to test the lower channel with the 2.4 GHz spec splitters - at this point, what's working, I left it alone for tonight - now wife and daughter are happy ;)

    I still need to develop a better understanding of the MOCA POE Filter situation (and I agree, it probably needs loaded on in the building "cabinet" (by a Spectrum tech) - and boy, what a challenge that could be.

    For now, the only "problem" I'm seeing tonight is my 100mb internet is running about 20 up and 10 down - but it has been consistently bad late at night since moving in here last month - my previous residence I had "true choice" and all of the services were much better - here, I have the "choice" of Spectrum (max 100 or 120 for a premium cost) or AT&T (max 50) ... so I'm not holding my breath

    Thanks again for the tips!
     
  6. Oct 5, 2018 #6 of 10
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    11,759
    1,532
    Nov 25, 2003
    How are you testing your connection speed, in regards to hardware and testing utility? (You’d ideally want to use a Gigabit-capable laptop or PC wired to your router’s Ethernet LAN.)

    I’d recommend testing your Internet connection and check/document upstream & downstream frequencies in-use by the modem both with MoCA enabled and disabled.

    And aside from getting the required MoCA filter installed in the central wiring closet for the building (the Point-of-Entry/PoE for the cable signal to your unit), it would be a worthwhile test to see if your modem behavior/performance changes when you install a separate MoCA filter on the input of the modem.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
  7. Oct 6, 2018 #7 of 10
    justkdue

    justkdue New Member

    7
    1
    Oct 4, 2018
    Thanks for these suggestions - I'm away for the weekend, but will be following up on these early next week
     
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  8. justkdue

    justkdue New Member

    7
    1
    Oct 4, 2018
    This project has been a lesson in frustration ... a little over a week ago, I thought I had it by using the higher channel for MoCA and changing the splitter to ones that supported up to 2.4GHz, but that didn't last much more than 24 hours. A couple of days later, I learned that Spectrum had deployed full DOCSIS 3.1 channels in my segment over the previous four days - times when I also was having these problems. But at this point, I'm not much farther ahead than where I was to begin with - it seems that I have to make a choice at any given time to either allow the TiVOs to communicate via MoCA *OR* to have internet.

    Tonight I was finally able to get into the modem (that also is a chore, as they have "semi-locked-it-down" but there are ways..." so I am posting the information that I learned as requested: (FWIW, with the MoCA turned OFF, I have now been getting pretty reliably +/- 80mb down and 11mb up for my 100/10 internet service - a little better during off peak times, and bogs down most evenings.

    Also, I have NOT been able yet to address the PoE filter.

    Finally, I have TESTED using Ethernet only (strung a 100' Ethernet cable from one end of the apartment to the other for the mini) and that works flawlessly (but of course, I can't just leave that wire strung all through the place) ... I am considering if I can't get this MoCA figured out to see if I can get a power line ethernet type of option in place that will work...

    Thanks for any thoughts

    CM Downstream Channel Info
    Channel Lock Status Channel Type Channel ID Frequency Width Power SNR Modulation Profile ID Correctables Uncorrectables
    1 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 20 693000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.2 dBmV 40.4 dB QAM256 0 0
    2 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 2 585000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.6 dBmV 40.8 dB QAM256 0 0
    3 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 3 591000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.7 dBmV 40.5 dB QAM256 0 0
    4 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 4 597000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.5 dBmV 40.8 dB QAM256 0 0
    5 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 5 603000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7 dBmV 41 dB QAM256 0 0
    6 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 6 609000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.3 dBmV 40.7 dB QAM256 0 0
    7 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 7 615000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.9 dBmV 40.1 dB QAM256 0 0
    8 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 8 621000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.8 dBmV 40.4 dB QAM256 0 0
    9 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 9 627000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.1 dBmV 40.7 dB QAM256 0 0
    10 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 10 633000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -6.9 dBmV 40.7 dB QAM256 0 0
    11 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 11 639000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.9 dBmV 40 dB QAM256 0 0
    12 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 12 645000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.8 dBmV 40.2 dB QAM256 0 0
    13 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 13 651000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.3 dBmV 40.4 dB QAM256 0 0
    14 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 14 657000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.2 dBmV 40.5 dB QAM256 0 0
    15 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 15 663000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.8 dBmV 40.1 dB QAM256 0 0
    16 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 16 669000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.6 dBmV 40.1 dB QAM256 0 0
    17 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 17 675000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.3 dBmV 40 dB QAM256 0 0
    18 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 18 681000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.2 dBmV 40.3 dB QAM256 0 0
    19 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 19 687000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.3 dBmV 40.2 dB QAM256 0 0
    20 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 21 699000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.5 dBmV 40 dB QAM256 0 0
    21 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 22 705000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.5 dBmV 40.2 dB QAM256 0 0
    22 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 23 711000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.7 dBmV 40 dB QAM256 0 0
    23 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 24 717000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.7 dBmV 40.1 dB QAM256 0 0
    24 Locked SC-QAM Downstream 25 723000000 Hz 6000000 Hz -7.8 dBmV 39.8 dB QAM256 0 0
    25 Locked OFDM Downstream 32 338000000 Hz 94000 kHz -9 dBmV 38.5 dB 0 1 2 0 0
    CM Upstream Channel Info
    Channel Lock Status Channel Type Channel ID Frequency Width Power Modulation/Profile ID
    1 Locked ATDMA 49 19400000 Hz 3200000 Hz 48.3 dBmV 1
    2 Locked ATDMA 50 24200000 Hz 6400000 Hz 50.5 dBmV 2
    3 Locked ATDMA 51 30600000 Hz 6400000 Hz 49.8 dBmV 2
    4 Locked ATDMA 52 37000000 Hz 6400000 Hz 50.5 dBmV 2
     
  9. justkdue

    justkdue New Member

    7
    1
    Oct 4, 2018
    The numbers I posted above tonight were done by connecting a laptop physically directly to the cable modem - I had to set a static IP temporarily in order to access the cable modem screens, but it worked. Typically my speed numbers have been via WiFi (or Ethernet for my desktop) through my ASUS RT-AC66U router connected to Spectrum's e31u2v1 modem (Ubee modem, was "new in box" from them when I picked up)
     
  10. krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    11,759
    1,532
    Nov 25, 2003
    The frequencies in use by the modem are all below 1002 MHz (below 726 MHz, actually), so I’d recommend installing a MoCA filter directly on the modem’s coax input port to isolate the modem from the MoCA signals.

    (And you’d still need to get a MoCA filter installed at the signal Point-of-Entry to secure your MoCA network.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018 at 8:41 AM
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