Best MoCa config

Discussion in 'TiVo Help Center' started by saunsaun, Nov 10, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Dec 11, 2019 #81 of 104
    mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

    3,059
    936
    Aug 13, 2015
  2. Dec 11, 2019 #82 of 104
    krkaufman

    krkaufman TDL shepherd

    15,399
    2,772
    Nov 25, 2003
  3. Dec 11, 2019 #83 of 104
    mdavej

    mdavej Well-Known Member

    3,059
    936
    Aug 13, 2015
    Yes of course. It still amuses me that it's still there after all these years, so I post it every chance I get.
     
    krkaufman and kpeters59 like this.
  4. Dec 11, 2019 #84 of 104
    snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

    1,345
    429
    Jun 6, 2008
    You might want to hold off on that amplifier, as it creates a new problem in your system. That amplifier works fine in a MoCA system when it sits at the very top of the coax "tree", but with that amp in the attic it isn't at the top of the tree. One common internal configuration of these amplifiers is to have the input feed an amplifier that has the output going through a PoE filter and then into a splitter. So, any MoCA devices that are connected to the outputs of the amp will only see the splitter and the PoE filter. The PoE filter blocks MoCA signals from passing through the input port of the amplifier, so the Minis in basement and main won't be able to communicate with the Bolt.

    One solution is to put the Commscope in the cable box in place of the SV-3BG and use the 4-way Holland splitter in the attic. In that configuration you won't need any PoE filters.

    I would suggest waiting on the Commscope to find out if you actually need it. If you put a PoE and the 3-way Holland splitter in the cable box, and use the 4-way Holland splitter in the attic instead of the existing amplifier, you may find that everything works fine.
     
    mdavej likes this.
  5. Dec 11, 2019 #85 of 104
    kpeters59

    kpeters59 Well-Known Member

    2,558
    518
    Jun 19, 2007
    Houston, Texas
    Moving the amplifier to the outside location (the top of the 'tree') is still going to give you your strongest signal throughput. Even without the 2 new runs from the attic to the lower level wires.

    So, the new amp, or at least the power injector, is a fine plan...

    -KP
     
  6. Dec 11, 2019 #86 of 104
    saunsaun

    saunsaun Member

    35
    6
    Nov 10, 2019
    I ordered all that I listed earlier, before I saw the recent messages. I will first try using just the POE and the splitters and removing the amp, since that will be an easy change. Then I will try with the moca amp outside and the 4 way splitter in the attic, as KP originally suggested. With the amp in the outside box, I don't need any POE anywhere?

    Also, l thought there was an issue with the cable modem needing to be isolated from the MoCa network?

    Remember, at the moment we only have 2 of the upstairs coax drops in use. In the next few weeks, I expect we will add a mini to the 3rd drop. Then there is the question of whether the previously mentioned Comcast device can be added in the last bedroom.

    Amazon delivery dates are Lawn right now. The commscope delivery window is December 18th through 26th.
     
  7. Dec 11, 2019 #87 of 104
    kpeters59

    kpeters59 Well-Known Member

    2,558
    518
    Jun 19, 2007
    Houston, Texas
    It depends on which amp you use. The MoCA amp? No...

    Since you've got a DOCSIS 3.1 Modem, you may need to use a POE filter on it's input.

    -KP
     
  8. Dec 23, 2019 #88 of 104
    jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

    2,822
    373
    Jan 1, 2009
    Just checking to see what the final solution was and how well it is working.
     
  9. Dec 27, 2019 #89 of 104
    saunsaun

    saunsaun Member

    35
    6
    Nov 10, 2019
    Hi Jimbach,
    I replaced the splitter outside and replaced the amped splitter in the Attic with a regular MoCa splitter. The network speeds have really picked up and we are getting great network performance constantly now, but the cable modem numbers have gotten worse. I haven't reached out because I haven't had a chance to work on this much lately. I had a call with TiVo and they said my MoCa numbers look really bad. They want me to move the bolt closer to the tivo bridge. It has been raining a lot and I haven't had a chance to put the amped splitter outside. Our outside cable box is broken and won't hold it. We have a new box that will. I have more work to do and then will provide more updates.
     
  10. Dec 27, 2019 #90 of 104
    kpeters59

    kpeters59 Well-Known Member

    2,558
    518
    Jun 19, 2007
    Houston, Texas
    Yikes!

    Post up those numbers for the MoCA and the DOCSIS Modem. And a fresh sketch of your current wiring.

    -KP
     
  11. Dec 29, 2019 #91 of 104
    saunsaun

    saunsaun Member

    35
    6
    Nov 10, 2019
    Here is my new drawing:

    15776156475235279575845609710109.jpg

    We now have 4 minis. 2 are MoCa attached and 2 are ethernet, as you can see. I added the recommended POE MoCa filter outside and replaced the old splitter with the recommended Holland MoCa splitter. The leg that goes to the attic is off of the -3.9db port.

    I had to call TiVo when adding the new Mini about an issue. While I was on the phone with them, I told them about the splitter options that I had and the guy recommended that I put this splitter in the attic:

    Ideal 2.4GHz 4-Way Digital Splitter-85-334 - The Home Depot

    That is one that I had bought previously. I still have the recommended Holland 4way splitter that I can try as well.

    Our WiFi speeds are now consistently around 90Mbps all over the house, without needing to access the new basement extender. Previously, it was sporadically between 8-35Mbps.

    The TiVo numbers are now showing TX 270 and 237, RX 269 and 244.

    The modem numbers are now a dismal -9.7 to -14.4dBmV downstream, with upstream 53-55.
    Screenshot_20191229-043911_Chrome.jpg

    I could try the Holland in the attic, if anyone thinks that would be beneficial. That was the original plan.

    I have company in town this week. The next step will be to remove the outside POE and try the new amped MoCa Commscope outside.

    Does anyone have a feel for whether I need a POE in front of the Surfboard SB8200 DOCSIS 3.1 cable modem, or anywhere else?

    Also, I don't have any terminators. Wondering if I need to buy some for the unused Commscope ports when I put that outside? Is there any specific brand/type I would need?
     
  12. Dec 29, 2019 #92 of 104
    kpeters59

    kpeters59 Well-Known Member

    2,558
    518
    Jun 19, 2007
    Houston, Texas
    Yikes!

    You actually have internet? Wow!

    It's a good plan to cap the unused Amp Ports. Especially outside.

    I don't think the Basement Mini qualifies as Ethernet. Maybe call it Ethernet Via MoCA.

    I'd expect you'll want a POE Filter on the input to your Modem.

    -KP
     
  13. Dec 29, 2019 #93 of 104
    kpeters59

    kpeters59 Well-Known Member

    2,558
    518
    Jun 19, 2007
    Houston, Texas
    I wonder what replacing (temporarily) the 4-way Attic Splitter with a 3-way would do to your Signal Levels?

    -KP
     
  14. Dec 29, 2019 #94 of 104
    jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

    2,822
    373
    Jan 1, 2009
    Your issue is too many splitters. At best with your current hook up your cable modem is 10.5 db lower than what is coming from the pole. It is more likely worse than that.

    The best scenario would be the cable modem hooked to the lowest loss leg of your outdoor splitter directly.

    I think you still need a POE filter between your Modem and your MoCa network.
     
  15. Dec 30, 2019 #95 of 104
    snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

    1,345
    429
    Jun 6, 2008
    Good to know that everything is functional (if not ideal) without the amplified splitter.

    Since you now have a PoE in place, I doubt that you'll see any difference between the splitter that is currently in the attic and the Holland. MoCA TX/RX at 270 is about as good as it gets, and 240 is perfectly acceptable.

    If the WiFi extender in the basement isn't actually needed for WiFi, and the only device connected to an ethernet port is the Mini, then you could decommission the WCB3000N and just use a direct MoCA connection for the Mini.

    Best practice is to use 75-ohm terminators on all unused splitter outputs.
     
  16. Dec 30, 2019 #96 of 104
    saunsaun

    saunsaun Member

    35
    6
    Nov 10, 2019
    Jimbach, I am working toward KPs idea of running some more cable drops to the attic, putting the amped splitter in the outside box and having all of the drops come directly from there, with 2 separate drops for the attic. In that case, there would be no more splitters, except the one outside. Of course, that amped splitter would still be the MoCa Commscope. That will take some work, to get more cables run from the basement to the attic, and that won't happen too soon.

    The "what to watch," "tv shows on now" feature won't display on 3 of our minis. After a reboot, sometimes it will work. I have called TiVo and they say that it's because our MoCa numbers are low. Before making the splitter changes, none of our TiVo's would display that screen properly. What I don't understand is the office ethernet attached mini won't display it. Neither will the basement mini, nor the main level mini.

    We'll see after I try the Commscope MoCa amped splitter outside. I'll let you know what happens after I try that.

    Snerd, I thought the cable modem's numbers are supposed to be really bad numbers...but our Network is the most stable it has ever been, by far. I didn't realize these TiVo numbers were good. TiVo support told me the numbers were bad... Because 2 of the peers show zeroes for transmit and receive... But I thought that's because those peers used to be MoCA attached and were moved to Ethernet attached.
     
  17. Dec 31, 2019 #97 of 104
    snerd

    snerd Well-Known Member

    1,345
    429
    Jun 6, 2008
    QAM256 channels should have SNR of 30dB or better, so channels 16 and 17 are pretty bad with SNR of 27dB and 28dB. Most of the channels have SNR in the 36dB to 39dB range, which should be fine. Having 32 channels to play with means that having a few bad channels isn't the worst problem you could have.

    Since the modem frequencies are all well below 900MHz, there is a trick that can improve signal strength for the modem and also provide some MoCA isolation in lieu of a PoE on the modem input. You could replace the 2-way splitter in the office with a diplexer by connecting the modem to the VHF/UHF port while connecting the Bridge to the SAT port.

    Too bad the TiVo Bridge isn't the ECB6200 equivalent (or a Motorolla MM1000), which would allow you to ditch the splitter completely by connecting the modem to the Device/TV/STB port. These MoCA adapters essentially have a built in diplexer that sends the higher MoCA frequencies to the adapter while sending the lower DOCSIS/catv frequencies to the Device port. The insertion loss for the diplexer is only about -1.5dB rather than the -3.5dB for a typical spliiter.

    Another game you could play to get better modem signals is to exchange the 4-way splitter in the attic with a 2-way splitter that has one output going to the office, and the other output going to a 3-way splitter that feeds the bedrooms. That should improve the modem signals by another 3.5dB, for a total improvement of about 5.5dB if you also use the diplexer. That would get all of your QAM256 channels above 30dB SNR.

    Take anything you hear from TiVo support with a big bag of salt.
     
    fcfc2 likes this.
  18. Feb 7, 2020 #98 of 104
    saunsaun

    saunsaun Member

    35
    6
    Nov 10, 2019
    I thought I would give an update.

    Comcast finally came out and replaced the cable from the street to the house. We are now getting wifi-connected speeds of 130MB/s. They replaced most of the splitters that I had bought, saying that they were seeing interference coming from them. Also, we replaced the attic 4-way splitter with a 2-way into a 3-way splitter, per snerd's suggestion, which helped as well. While internet is great in the house now, the Tivo devices are still flaky.

    Here is the updated drawing.

    20200207_082424.jpg
    We are working toward adding coax to the attic and having the street coax going to the attic with no splits. From there, I see a couple of options. Option 1: A two-way splitter in the Attic with one drop going directly to the office cable modem and the other going into the amped moca splitter. Then, one of the drops from the MoCA splitter would also go to the office and connect to the MoCA card. All of the other drops from the MoCA splitter would go directly to coax outlets without further splits. This would require adding 2 coax drops from the attic that would come out of the splitter and connect to the main and basement floors coax. This would also require adding a 2nd drop to the office. In this configuration, would there be a Poe filter anywhere? At the box? Before the cable modem? Option 2: the street cable going into the Attic and then into the amped MoCa splitter. From here, I'm not certain the best solution for the office, where the cable modem, MoCA adapter and router sits. I could still add a second drop to the office, or keep the two-way splitter in the office. Again, I'm not certain where the poe filter would go in this solution.

    Thanks to all of you, I definitely knew more than the Comcast guy. He told me that he went out to his truck to reach out to someone else and told them that he was intimidated by my knowledge. He did not understand TiVo and the MoCA configuration. He tried to plug the Comcast box into the bedroom coax and immediately the MoCA devices and a lot of ethernet devices like my phones, went down. we tried to put a Poe filter in front of it but that didn't work either. We ended up leaving the Comcast box unplugged. Trying to get that working will be a different thread!
     
  19. Feb 7, 2020 #99 of 104
    jlb

    jlb Go Pats!

    8,933
    256
    Dec 13, 2001
    Essex...
    I know this is going sideways on this thread but has anyone had success recently using a powerline adapter for their mini? Moving to a new house in April and I don't have a coax jack in our master bedroom where I would put the mini. I might try it but be ok not having the mini in the bedroom and just an Apple TV for streaming apps.
     
  20. Feb 7, 2020 #100 of 104
    saunsaun

    saunsaun Member

    35
    6
    Nov 10, 2019
    I think that might be better for a new thread. I'm sure you can get ideas for that. I know I will be opening a separate thread about how to integrate my Xfinity box into this plan, but don't want this thread to go "sideways,"as you put it.
     

Share This Page