Anyone tried Youtube Tv and can compare it to Tivo?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by omelet1978, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. May 28, 2019 #61 of 754
    NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I sort of agree with you on the direction this is all going. But for most traditional cable TV subscribers, the main sticking points with going with an OTT streaming cable service like YouTube TV or DirecTV Now would be:

    1. Does it have all the channels I really want?
    2. Because I won't be getting a bundle discount for TV + broadband from the same company, will I end up paying as much or more in total?
    3. Will I end up exceeding my broadband data cap since I'll be streaming everything I watch?
    4. Can I get used to watching all my TV through an app on a streaming device as opposed to a regular cable box (or TiVo) with its full-featured remote?
    5. Will the cloud DVR experience on the OTT service (amount of storage, length of storage, ability to FF through ads, trick play performance) be as good as on my cable DVR (or TiVo), or at least be "good enough"?

    If those points don't apply to you (or you can mentally get past them), then yes, there are definitely things about going the OTT route that make it better. Mainly the fact that your entire TV experience -- live channels, DVR, VOD -- are all available to you on just about any device you want to use, wherever (in the US) you want to use it, as long as you're connected to the internet. And, as you say, they tend to simplify DVR management somewhat. YouTube TV *really* does so -- just "like" a show and all future recordings of it are automatically recorded and added to your library.

    What I expect will happen as traditional cable/telco pay TV providers move toward a cloud-based IPTV system is that their services will become more and more like the OTT services. With Xfinity TV, you can already get a lot of the same experience through the Xfinity Stream app on your phone when away from home as you get on an X1 box on your TV. I think some live channels are still unavailable out-of-home but that will eventually change. Meanwhile, because it's a service offered by the cable company, none of the concerns above apply.

    It's going to be very interesting to see what AT&T does with DirecTV Now this year. I think they're going to morph it into a dual-purpose service so that, for those customers who also have AT&T Internet/Fiber home broadband, none of those 5 concerns above will apply. But unlike Xfinity TV, the service won't JUST be sold to folks with an AT&T line running to their house. It will also be a nationwide OTT service available to anyone with any internet connection, like YouTube TV.
     
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  2. May 28, 2019 #62 of 754
    omelet1978

    omelet1978 Member

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    My contract with Xfinity is up in January, so I’ll take a good look at YouTube TV after reading through this thread. That being said I have a 3TB Tivo Bolt and if I’m able to get a good 2 year contract with Xfinity I’ll stick around. However, I have not yet updated to Hydra, so I might say goodbye to Tivo after that. The main reason I have not updated to Hydra is the lack of Live Guide. I experimented with the Hydra Mini Guide as well and it’s nowhere near as good.

    YouTube TV did raise their prices recently FYI. Also, Xfinity WiFi 60 MBPS is $30 in Atlanta so there are affordable ways to go about this but at the end of the day you are probably paying around $100 a month no matter what. That’s whether you have internet, Netflix, Hulu, etc...or a cable/internet bundle like I do.
     
  3. May 28, 2019 #63 of 754
    trip1eX

    trip1eX imo, afaik, feels like to me, *exceptions, ~aprox

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    I was thinking of selling my Roamio Plus and Minis too in order to get value out of them now while they are still worth something.

    On the other hand, the fact I've had them for 5 years means I've got my money's worth already and the rest is gravy. And that makes cable cheaper than YTTV plus internet for me as long as I still can get deals from my cable co. I think my deal expires in August.


    Also I'm more of a fan of Netflix, Amazon, HUlu, HBO and Showtime etc. Stuff is just there to watch when you want to watch it. There is no DVR. It's all "recorded." That's where tv is going. No commercials either.

    So I'm not even sure I would get YTTV if my Roamio went kaput tomorrow (even though I thought it was the best of the ~4 OTT services I tried.) If my Roamio went kaput or I sold it I might just go with Netflix, HBO and Showtime and then rotate them around with a few other services every few months. I already pay for Netflix and HBO as it is so I'd see a good savings there relatively speaking to what I pay now and would have quite a lot to watch on tv. Just would have to do without sports. :)


    And family ...my 18 yr old hasn't touched Tivo in 9 months. 12 yr old only uses it watch movies I record that are mostly from HBO anyway that I don't even need to record on Tivo. They both watch youtube and netflix.

    Wife uses Facebook while the TV on :) and when actually watching it is either surfing or watching Netflix/HBO.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  4. May 28, 2019 #64 of 754
    BNBTivo

    BNBTivo Active Member

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    This is a great conversation with some really fantastic input.

    Your 5 sticking points are exactly why I would say "right now" it's not clear cut that YTTV would be the best option for everyone. But these are all things that will be resolved in the coming years. Channels and more full featured offerings will come. YTTV has added a lot of channels since original launch. Not missing much other than Viacom at this point. Internet providers are eventually going to be offering unlimited bandwidth without huge bundles. I wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't get regulated. While I didn't like net neutrality, it would have made it impossible for Comcast, for example, to offer IPTV that wouldn't count against their data cap. Point is, eventually this stuff will get worked out. Internet is too fast and too cheap to provide, the only reason these caps and bundles and what not exist is to fight the inevitable coming of streaming cable. Even right now you can get deals on internet only products. ie. I can get 350mbps ATT Fiber, with no bundling, for $50 for a 1 year period.

    What's going to happen is providers of internet will become unbundled from providers of TV. They won't be one in the same. So Comcast can try bundling and threaten to jack your internet rates up, but other internet providers will undercut them which will force Comcast to compete on only internet and to stop using the TV bundles for hostage negotiations. Just look at Google Fiber. No data caps. $50 or so for a reasonable plan.

    And I think that was my point. Internet will become cheaper. It's only moderately expensive/difficult now because of legacy TV providers having control over it. Their days are numbered. I'll have all of my Tivo's listed in the next few days for sale. Looking at ebay, I should pull $1500 - $2000 for them (I have 14 devices). Imagine what I paid new.... That's 5 years of YTTV just in Tivo equipment. Ridiculous!! I've got good years out of it, and IPTV is new so I didn't have other options when I started with Tivo (15 years ago). But still, the equipment cost alone is YEARS of TV service. No need for equipment anymore. Out of my 14 TV's between my homes, I only need 5 Roku devices. All the rest had all the smart TV options and no need for any equipment at all. It's a big deal that you don't need equipment anymore. It changes everything.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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  5. May 28, 2019 #65 of 754
    BNBTivo

    BNBTivo Active Member

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    This sounds like my house! Did I write this comment with an alternate identity? Lol.

    If you are using all of those apps, Roku is flat out better. Tivo has dated versions of the apps and doesn't seem to update them. They are missing apps, too. Get a LOT more on Roku than Tivo and if the streaming services (including streaming TV) offer what you want to watch for much cheaper, than it's a no brainer. The Roku Ultra's are lightning fast, faster than Tivo and solid devices. Almost none of my family watches much TV outside of my wifes few reality shows. We use Netflix/Hulu/HBO Now/PBS for a lot of our entertainment. I can't be without some of my shows so YTTV has been great, especially for sports. And with the antiquated "tuners" a thing of the past + unlimited DVR, I often have 10+ recordings going at the same time. I just record everything now that I even moderately enjoy. It's great. And HBO Now is a better experience than through the Tivo or cable box. Heck, Xfinity doesn't have ondemand anymore with the Tivo and HBO Go won't work on Tivo with Xfinity. It's a disaster. Time to cash these boxes out!
     
  6. Oct 25, 2019 #66 of 754
    ZobVA

    ZobVA New Member

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    TBH I think it's kind of presumptuous to imply that if someone doesn't like Hydra then they are backwards. I love technology and look forward to advancements and new things. But when it came to Hydra, I tried it for several weeks on my Tivo Bolt and I really, really disliked it and it had nothing to do with getting used to it. I didn't like that they dumbed down the GUI with big obtrusive pictures, videos and icons for people who like to look at pictures rather than read menus. It was too much like Netflix's interface which I don't like either. Not to mention that they also rolled advertising into the Hydra format. I rolled my Bolt back to the old operating system.
    But... everybody is different. I know many people do prefer to click on pictures than on text.
     
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  7. Oct 25, 2019 #67 of 754
    tenthplanet

    tenthplanet Well-Known Member

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    In Hydra if you use the menu you never have to click a picture/icon. Everything can be done in text and you can read info with a nice big font. The grid guide is nice and big. Nothing is obtrusive if you don't choose it.
     
  8. Oct 27, 2019 #68 of 754
    johnfasc

    johnfasc Active Member

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    Didn't mean to put anyone's choice down or claim one is better or worse. I guess I am an easily satisfied and although I do not like the Netflix interface either I just roll with it. All is good as long as my TiVo works. ( hand shake).
     
  9. Oct 27, 2019 #69 of 754
    omelet1978

    omelet1978 Member

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    I do not think it's time to cash out on the Tivo boxes just yet.

    I agree that Roku is probably better when it come to apps such as Netflix and such. My solution has to stick with Tivo Experience 3 with lifetime service on a 3tb Bolt and then get the slide remote which you can type on (since Tivo voice search does not work within apps). Combination of building up a movie library by recording movies on Xfinity as well as apps that work "good" enough I'm sticking with Tivo at least a couple of more years.

    The writing is on the wall though. If they brought back Live Guide to Hydra I might upgrade to the Edge, but as of now I see no reason too and will just hold on to my setup for a few years and then eventually cut the cable cord.
     
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  10. Oct 30, 2019 #70 of 754
    mattyro7878

    mattyro7878 Well-Known Member

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    I know it had been discussed ad nauseum but why can't Hydra have a live guide? It's basic information, not an operating system. Are they just bring stubborn?
     
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  11. Oct 31, 2019 #71 of 754
    NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    I don't think TiVo has ever stated. My guess is that the Live Guide was one of those UI conventions that was peculiar to TiVo and never used by other DVRs/cable boxes. (I imagine TiVo had a patent on it and they didn't license it to others.) A good many long-time TiVo users seem to like Live Guide but over the years, there are fewer and fewer of those folks still on TiVo.

    When TiVo designed their new UI (Hydra/TE4), I would imagine that they mainly had their pay TV operator partners in mind, given that they account for WAY more TiVo users and revenue now than do retail TiVo users. And since those operators' customers would be coming from other cable/satellite DVRs, with the vast majority of them never having owned a TiVo before, they wouldn't be familiar with Live Guide. So it just didn't make much sense to spend the time and resources to include Live Guide as an option in Hydra/TE4 if TiVo felt like it was an option that wouldn't be understood or used by the great majority of users.
     
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  12. Oct 31, 2019 #72 of 754
    Mikeguy

    Mikeguy Well-Known Member

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    Which is such a shame, as it is such a nice and even liberating feature (for many of us).
     
  13. Oct 31, 2019 #73 of 754
    PSU_Sudzi

    PSU_Sudzi Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty certain that at some point in the past the Verizon FIOS guide was similar to Live Guide, going more than ten years back. It was in the Dark Ages before I had a Moxi or TiVo and I remember being at friends house for poker and he was putting a basketball game on tv and the guide was formatted like Live Guide (Moxi had this as well before they folded).
     
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  14. Oct 31, 2019 #74 of 754
    NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. Well then, perhaps TiVo did license their patents for Live Guide out to a few other DVR systems. Although I think it's fair to say that it never really caught on. OTOH, everyone is familiar with the grid guide, with each channel on its own horizontal row and time slices arranged left to right. It's just the universal standard for live TV UIs. Hulu with Live TV tried to break away from that with a more modern UI but users complained and they had to relent and bring back the good ol' grid guide.

    I didn't come to TiVo until a few years ago, after having used lots of other STBs/DVRs. I never took to the Live Guide, but that's just me. Again, I tend to think that the Live Guide devotees are folks who have been using a TiVo for a long time.
     
  15. Oct 31, 2019 #75 of 754
    powrcow

    powrcow Active Member

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    TiVo has never said this (or much else about UI analytics) but maybe the Live Guide utilization was too low to move to Hydra. TiVo should be able to know exactly which guide people are using.

    Unless they made a mistake and counted Grid Guide based MSO TiVos alongside retail TiVos when checking for Live Guide utilization.
     
  16. Oct 31, 2019 #76 of 754
    PSU_Sudzi

    PSU_Sudzi Well-Known Member

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    I may have “misremembered” the precise layout of the Verizon FIOS guide, here is a shot of it back then. Also included is the Moxi guide. I ended up going with Moxi over TiVo at the time because the Moxi guide was in HD and TiVo still has their SD guide (some of us still have it in places 10 years later lol).
     

    Attached Files:

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  17. Oct 31, 2019 #77 of 754
    NashGuy

    NashGuy Well-Known Member

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    The look of the Moxi UI was really nice and ahead of its time. (I don't know enough about it to comment on its functionality but I was impressed by it aesthetically.) I can see why you opted for it.
     
  18. Nov 14, 2019 #78 of 754
    saeba

    saeba Active Member

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    The recent TiVo updates (pre-roll and Grid ads, the dubious TiVo+) and the fact that we recently moved from cable internet to an in-building Internet connection (100/100mbps no data cap) have led us to consider dropping TiVo/Comcast and moving to YouTube TV. Here's a list of what we've noticed in considering the change:

    YouTube TV Pros:
    Unlimited simultaneous recordings
    Unlimited cloud storage
    Up to six family members can have their own profile and library of recordings
    No cable provider required – less cost (we spend ~$1,200 per year on the basic Comcast Xfinity HD Preferred TV package; YouTube TV is ~$600)
    No specialized local hardware to buy/replace (TiVos, TiVo hard disks, etc.)
    Stream to PC, phone, tablet, smart TV - better streaming capabilities than TiVo
    No requirement for wired connectivity to viewing locations (TiVo now has a wireless adapter for their Mini)
    Cloud recordings not subject to cable/power outages or video glitches
    Auto-extends recordings to cover sports events running long
    Ability to customize guide view to re-order or remove channels

    YouTube TV Cons:
    Recordings expire after nine months (but no ability to otherwise remove from library)
    Limited to three simultaneous viewing streams
    Missing some channels versus Comcast; examples: History, A&E, Comedy Central, DIY, Nickelodeon, MTV
    Some networks replace recordings with OnDemand versions with forced commercials (though in Dec-2019, YTTV removed this restriction for CBS, CW, Smithsonian Channel and PopTV so all major channels are not restricted)
    No auto-skip on commercials (though with TiVo this is limited to certain, mainly primetime, shows)
    No wishlist functionality (can record by sports team/league though)
    Limited recording options - record all showings versus TiVo's all/new only/starting with season/specific channel only/etc. settings
    No quickmode playback of shows (TiVo quickmode speeds playback by 30% without audio distortion)
    No ability to download recordings
    Guide view has a large format such that a limited number of channels and time is shown on screen at a time
    Guide only shows up to 7 hours of channel data (23-Dec-2010 This is being changed to a 7-day window. Available first in web version)
    No manual recording (channel/time-based)
    No slow-motion replay (Note: playback speed is settable in the browser version via the settings menu option on the YouTube TV playback bar. Options include: 0.25, 0.5, 0.75, Normal, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75 and 2)


    Have we missed any key differences?

    [02-Dec-2019 Update] We decided to drop Comcast and handed in our cable cards. We're now watching TV on YTTV.
    [07-Jan-2019 Update] Sent final payment to Comcast - no more cable bills!

    [Edited 15-Nov-2019 to add notes from trip1eX]
    [Edited 01-Dec-2019 to add misc notes from further evaluation]
    [Edited 03-Dec-2019 to remove "forced commercials" for CBS. YTTV removed this restriction for CBS, CW, Smithsonian Channel and PopTV]
    [Edited 18-Dec-2019 to reflect PBS joining the YTTV channel lineup]
    [Edited 23-Dec-2019 to reflect guide expanding to 7-days of data]
    [Edited 07-Jan-2019] to reflect release of TiVo Mini wireless adapter
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
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  19. Nov 14, 2019 #79 of 754
    trip1eX

    trip1eX imo, afaik, feels like to me, *exceptions, ~aprox

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    I canceled cable 2 days ago and went to YTTV as well.

    HEre are some other differences (I think) that I have run into in 2 days:

    Supposedly it records a football or basketball game etc no matter how long it runs. I hope so because there is no padding of recordings. So far so good.

    You can organize the guide channels in the order you want them to appear on YTTV.

    Guide is a little slow to navigate on the ATV using the touchpad.

    YTTV only shows ~7 hours of guide data at a time afaik.

    The guide only shows ~5 channels and 1 1/2 -2 hours of programming at a time. It takes up the entire screen. It does show a nice large channel symbol and picture of what is currently airing for each channel. But the picture results in only 1 1/2 hours being displayed on the screen.


    Doesn't reboot like my Tivo.

    Picture quality has been better overall. IT's a different beast though where once in while I got a bit of lower-res picture for a few moments. With cable & Tivo you won't see that, but I always got blocky picture glitches regularly on my Tivo. So 6 of one, half dozen other so far.

    No manual recording.
     
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  20. Nov 14, 2019 #80 of 754
    saeba

    saeba Active Member

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    Atlanta...
    If so, that's a good one.

    I wonder how it handles the Sunday night primetime issue when NFL football delays the start of shows you're recording?

    Or the ESPN issue, where the start of a game is moved to another ESPN channel due to a prior game running long?
     

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