1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Altered Carbon - Netflix, All Episodes, Season 1

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by dswallow, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    42,286
    1,903
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    They didn't explain it very well, but the sentence is not incarceration for the prisoner...it's making his body available for other use while his consciousness is in storage. And he just has to hope it's not too badly damaged (or dead!) when (if) he gets it back.
     
  2. TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

    19,121
    515
    Aug 6, 2003
    Madison, WI
    Right, I got that, but it's an extremely stupid way to make prison work.
     
  3. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    42,286
    1,903
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    Why? Society gets something out of it (a supply of spare bodies), and the criminal loses something (years/decades/centuries of his life, plus wear and tear on his body). With no cost to society to house live prisoners.
     
  4. TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

    19,121
    515
    Aug 6, 2003
    Madison, WI
    It gives up entirely on rehabilitation and ignores many of the factors that lead to rehabilitation (such as maturing out of bad behaviors). It's cruel and unusual punishment. Deprivation of basic human rights. No chance for appeals processes. Since total, instantaneous cloning devices exist, there's no actual need to have a supply of bodies of prisoners who may not have made solid choices on what to do with their bodies. Spinning up a virtual instance would be equivalent and would actually result in perceived time served and a chance for rehabilitation while taking basically no time at all. I could probably go on all day. The whole concept is a bludgeon to make a not at all subtle point.
     
  5. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    42,286
    1,903
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    But it fits in perfectly with the society portrayed in the show...
     
  6. TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

    19,121
    515
    Aug 6, 2003
    Madison, WI
    Not really at all. It's a completely superfluous idea in a world where instant clones exist and a police force that somewhat enforces laws exists.
     
  7. eddyj

    eddyj Señor Member TCF Club

    60,899
    2,305
    Jun 20, 2002
    South Florida
    Instant clones? They said that clones were massively expensive. And the organic printer would have cost his son "everything he had" or something like that (he has to sell all that artwork).
     
  8. TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

    19,121
    515
    Aug 6, 2003
    Madison, WI
    The technology exists and I find it questionable why they wouldn't just have one of them somewhere which would alleviate the entire need to steal bodies during prison terms. I find it unlikely that the current system is cheaper in the long haul. I also find it dubious that a device like that would be so exorbitantly expensive unless it was just very recently invented. And it clearly wasn't because everyone knew about them and it was common knowledge that they existed (seemingly even the guy from 250 years ago knew). In a world where hacking apparently is extraordinarily easy all you'd have to do is hack one of them for ~15 seconds and you have a new body.

    If we are to believe in the full corruption of the system (despite evidence to the contrary) then there's no reason why they would have prison terms or prison. Just take their bodies and give the stack to family or friends or put it on some shelf somewhere. Why bother isolating their stacks? Then the state has to find bodies later which are apparently quite valuable to all but meths.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  9. john4200

    john4200 Active Member

    4,685
    21
    Oct 31, 2009
    The books are not very good science fiction, and the show did not improve on the books at all, while making some things worse.

    If you want good science fiction about consciousness transfer technology and its impact on society, check out Greg Egan. Diaspora is probably his best.
     
  10. eddyj

    eddyj Señor Member TCF Club

    60,899
    2,305
    Jun 20, 2002
    South Florida
    15 seconds? I am not done (last 2 to watch), but my impression was that it took a while to grow or print a clone. You say you don't buy that it would be expensive, but that is just silly, you cannot possibly claim that it would be cheap and easy, when it is part of the world building that it is not. It's like complaining that in Blade Runner, they could not have possibly had replicants since it would be cheaper to have something else. It is all made up technology, and the world builder gets to determine how easy/hard/expensive/cheap it is.

    Not having to feed and house people in prisons is gotta be a huge savings. But even if not, people would want it, because it gives you a shot at immortality, at a reasonable price (since only the mega rich can afford the clones).

    As to the hacking, don't you know that every computer system in every movie is always easily hacked? It is required! :p

    There is corruption, if you are rich enough to buy influence. Just like today.
     
  11. dswallow

    dswallow Save the Moderatоr TCF Club

    51,687
    331
    Dec 3, 2000
    Long...
    They printed a "clone" within hours using the printer he stole out of police evidence. And apparently whatever was in that box was also raw materials to do so. If nothing else, and no matter the printer cost, there's at least enough there to be producing a few such "clones" a day with each printer.

    Anyway, there's so much stuff like this in that universe that makes it so less believable. Fun story and all, but could've been better and survived at least cursory inspections of this sort.
     
  12. TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

    19,121
    515
    Aug 6, 2003
    Madison, WI
    @dswallow I don't think he's there yet. That might be a spoiler for him.

    @eddyj I can claim whatever I want as the audience for a show. Just because it's world-building doesn't mean it's logical. A lot of rules and universes don't make sense. That's what separates good science fiction from bad.
     
  13. eddyj

    eddyj Señor Member TCF Club

    60,899
    2,305
    Jun 20, 2002
    South Florida
    The technology is completely made up, so how can you claim is it logical that it would be expensive or cheap?

    When reading SF, assumptions like that have to be left to the world builder, and only then can one claim that other things may or may not be logical. But the basic made up facts? We have to assume those are true, otherwise we can claim that all SF (other than the real hard core hard-SF) is illogical. For example, I can just say FTL cannot possibly be cheap enough for smaller cargo ships to afford it, so clearly StarWars and Firefly (dons the flame suit) could not possibly work!

    And thanks for the spoiler warning, I say your post first because of the mention, so I managed to not read Doug's. :)
     
  14. dswallow

    dswallow Save the Moderatоr TCF Club

    51,687
    331
    Dec 3, 2000
    Long...
    The problem comes about when they contradict their own basic made-up facts.
     
  15. TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

    19,121
    515
    Aug 6, 2003
    Madison, WI
    I'm basing it on the established rules of the universe that seem to conflict with it. It would take someone five seconds to steal the plans for that thing and make their own. Maybe there's some unspoken reason why it's expensive, I dunno. Kind of immaterial since it was just a minor thought I had. Even if it's super expensive such that you could sell easily duplicated art whose provenance could be easily hacked for some inexplicably large sum to pay for it while still being the super wealthy child of someone whose wealth is unaffected entirely yet somehow didn't think to buy one for himself, then I still think the fact that it exists invalidates other parts of the show.
     
  16. eddyj

    eddyj Señor Member TCF Club

    60,899
    2,305
    Jun 20, 2002
    South Florida
    Sure, THAT I object to! Set whatever framework you want, but you gotta stick with it!
     
  17. eddyj

    eddyj Señor Member TCF Club

    60,899
    2,305
    Jun 20, 2002
    South Florida
    Well, it is made clear that Bancroft keeps his kids on a short leash, so selling the artwork for cash does not seem unreasonable. And "easily duplicated art"? Where did that come from? The plans for the printer may not be hard, but maybe the materials are expensive (especially since the printers are highly illegal, in the show, so I would bet the bio material they print with is also very illegal). A lot of things are not expensive per se, but being illegal, they cost a lot. I just don't see why having the bio-printers makes anything else invalid/inconsistent.

    There are many things wrong in the show/world, but the handling of the clones/printed bodies does not bother me at all.
     
  18. TAsunder

    TAsunder Debates Ghee vs Gi

    19,121
    515
    Aug 6, 2003
    Madison, WI
    All they had to do was say that it was extremely hard to come by because they are illegal and easily traced but he used magic hack sauce to make it invisible. I'd have at least overlooked that. At least then there'd be some consistency. Really, every dumb thing in this show could be changed to something to do with hacking and it would probably have been a better show because at least the hacking thing would be embraced instead of glossed over entirely until needed by other parts of the plot.
     
  19. cheesesteak

    cheesesteak Meh. TCF Club

    31,029
    727
    Jul 24, 2003
    15 mins...
    I enjoyed it a lot... until Rei was revealed as the big bad and her motives were extremely childish and insane.

    It seemed odd that Ortega - bionic arm and all - could last more than ten seconds in combat with an Envoy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  20. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    42,286
    1,903
    Oct 17, 2000
    Minneapolis
    In the book she wasn't his sister; she was just the Big Bad. Her motive was trying to keep her criminal empire together.

    The way they tied Rei (and Quell) to Kovacs's past succeeded in giving him a stronger emotional connection to what was going on (in the book he's basically just swept along by events). But I agree that it weakened Rei as a villain.
     

Share This Page