Adobe Flash 11 Any Inpact of the Premiere?

Discussion in 'TiVo Coffee House - TiVo Discussion' started by atmuscarella, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    Hello All,

    I don't know much about programing and was wondering if Adobe Flash 11, which is being hyped as faster and lighter on resources, has any potential effect on the Premiere?

    Thanks,
     
  2. Torgo

    Torgo Member

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    Only if Tivo would decide to implement it on their hardware.
    Chances of that happening before Flash 23 is out are slim to none, given their track record
     
  3. rainwater

    rainwater Active Member

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    It's not really up to TiVo afaik. The chip manufacturer who designed the chip for flash processing on the Premiere would have to support any new versions of flash.
     
  4. brentil

    brentil Member

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    TiVo Premiere does not run Flash, it runs Flash Lite which is a cut-down version of Flash for mobile & embedded systems. The last version released was FL 4.0 back in 2010 but I believe the devices still run FL 3.1 which is what Broadcom announced was supported by the BCM74xx chipsets.

    Adobe has been moving away from FL in favor of normal Flash & AIR as most phones now support them natively instead of using the cut-down FL runtime. Our chipset does not support the native Flash runtime though. If there's enough demand though they may release a Flash Lite 5 based on Flash 11.

    For there to be any benefit Adobe would first have to update the core FL runtimes, then Broadcom would have to implement them for the BCM7413 chipset, and then TiVo would have to implement it.

    Flash Lite 3.1 is based off of Flash 9 where Flash Light 4 is based off of Flash 10. If they did move to FL4 that should provide a good bit of performance enhancements as F10 was faster than F9.

    As I've discussed in my other thread I really think there's a new version 16 coming soon, and enhancements to the Flash runtime would fit in nicely with a new major version. Especially if they had to rewrite the UI in a new version of Flash to support it. It would greatly explain the lack of progress/updates to the existing interface.
     
  5. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    i was under the impression that the version of flash tivo could use was cooked on to the chips at the factory. So are you saying they can update some sort of firmware to let the chip run the newer versions?
     
  6. brentil

    brentil Member

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    That's correct. The Flash Lite code is part of the OS, not the chip itself. The chip just has official Flash Lite support based on its features and the special build of Flash Lite produced by Broadcom for that chipset. So in order for us to get a newer version of FL the following process must happen.

    1. Adobe creates a new version of Flash Lite (which they've done already as Flash Lite 4 based on Flash 10 as of last year, there is currently no Flash 11 version of Flash Lite announced)
    2. Broadcom must then take the Flash Lite code from Adobe and build their specific version that supports their hardware (no announcements about this having been done though)
    3. TiVo must then implement that version of Flash Lite into the OS (no information about this either)
    4. TiVo must then validate the existing interface to ensure it works with the new version of Flash Lite still (may see a performance gain from FL 4 being faster than FL 3 natively
    5. or TiVo must update/build a new UI using the new features of Flash Lite (very likely see performance gains)

    Who knows though, they might just stick with FL 3.1 since I've been unable to find any information on FL 4 moving forward. I think most companies have moved away from Flash Lite to instead implementing straight up Flash or AIR in its place. I was unable to find any information about AIR support though for our chipset.
     
  7. MichaelK

    MichaelK Active Member

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    interesting - thanks. Sorry for my ignorance but it's all a bit confusion to me

    a few follow up questions-

    like the newer versions of flash that work on smartphones not built by apple- is it possible that a flash 10 or 11 could be made to work on the chipset and the boxes would have full flash? (and I guess related are the DVR broadcom chips at all related to the cell phone broadcom chips that run flash?)

    Is the software updated with the rest of the OS on the hard drive or does that level have to get flashed onto a chip?

    The boxes still run linux right and then flash is on top of that- or do they not even run linux anymore and it's all flash?
     
  8. classicsat

    classicsat Astute User

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    The TiVo "software updates" are a package with boot, kernel, and root partitions, the kernel and root with the Linux OS, and the TiVo Interface components of the software (some elements I beleive come from the network). Flash-Lite is part of the UI operating software, and can get updated with a software update. All that software is on HDD partitions. Nothing that high level is stored on solid state non-volatile storage on a TiVo.
     
  9. brentil

    brentil Member

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    I would not expect our devices to support full Flash completely. There are certain hardware aspects needed to completely do that. However Adobe AIR is more of what they're pushing towards embedded devices like this. It's specifically designed to be an application development layer like Flash Lite was on embedded devices.

    The problem is though I've seen no comments/data that would link the older Broadcom chips to supporting AIR. Some of their newest ones do but those were announcements about full H.264 hardware decoding support.
     
  10. sbiller

    sbiller Active Member

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    I had posted this on another thread a few months back. The info in this thread is exactly what I was looking for related to the current state of Flash Lite. ~Sam

    Adobe Flash Lite is dead?
    When navigating to the official Adobe Flash Lite site --> http://www.adobe.com/products/flashlite/ I'm immediately redirected to --> http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplatformruntimes/

    Would it be accurate to state that Adobe has standardized on Adobe Flash Player and Adobe AIR as their two platform runtimes?

    What impact does this have on TiVo development going forward? I assume TiVo just uses the Adobe Flash Player with ActionScript going forward.

    I found this article --> http://www.leonardofranca.com/index....-lite-is-dead/ discussing the use of Flash Lite on Symbian platforms but with Nokia transitioning to WP7 it seems a moot point.

    On the contrary side, I did find a recent PR release from Pace about their App Cafe --> http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...123913824.html stating:

    Quote:
    The Pace App Café is based on Pace's Engineware™ software platform and is underpinned by a standards-based Flash Lite® Engine and published Software Development Kit (SDK).
     
  11. brentil

    brentil Member

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    At this point it's really going to come down to what Broadcom decides they want to support. You can find FL4 data on the adobe website and development things for it, but AIR really seems to be where they're moving. The new AIR 3 is based off of Flash 11.

    We may never get updates to the Flash core too and they may just stay on FL 3.1 if Broadcom decides the chips can't support the newer versions or don't want to put development into it.
     
  12. sbiller

    sbiller Active Member

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    Certainly looks like Broadcom is hedging their bets a bit here. The newer Broadcom chips appear to support Adobe Flash Platform for TV which indeed is Adobe Air based --> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/devices/flash_platform_tv.html They also support HTML5.
     
  13. innocentfreak

    innocentfreak Well-Known Member

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  14. atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    Again I don't really understand all of this but it sounds like TiVo is moving forward and developing features/functions that the Premiere doesn't have the necessary hardware to run? Is that what people who understand this see when they read the linked article?

    I guess we all know that Premiere would be replaced at some point I am wondering if this accelerates the move to the next platform?

    Thanks,
     
  15. innocentfreak

    innocentfreak Well-Known Member

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    Glad I wasn't the only one. I read it several times and didn't really walk away feeling like I knew anything more.

    Maybe Broadcom will end up supporting Adobe Air so they will be able to roll it out to the Premiere.
     
  16. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    Sounds to me like they plan to allow "apps" of some sort to run on the TiVo, and these "apps" are written in Adobe Air. Doesn't necessarily reflect on what TiVo is using for their UI. Don't forget the premiere still has an unused CPU core. Perhaps if they dedicate that to Adobe Air code it will be enough to run it without any specialized hardware from Broadcom.

    Dan
     
  17. brentil

    brentil Member

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    Where have you seen information about apps being written in AIR?

    I thought the 2nd CPU was enabled a while ago?

    Digging in the kernel code I found references to the 2nd CPU being disabled during the boot process but re-enabled post load. The TiVo version 16 code has that entire section of code removed for the boot process so both are enabled. This also makes sense as big parts of the newer Linux kernel added asynchronous boot loading which would actually take advantage of multiple cores.
     
  18. Dan203

    Dan203 Super Moderator Staff Member TCF Club

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    That's just how I read the article. It sounded to me like they were billing AIR as a platform for developers to add functionality to the devices. In the context of TiVo, who's UI is flash based, it's not 100% clear how it'll be used. But for the LG TV it sounds like it's going to be used for 3rd party apps. So I thought maybe that's how TiVo planned to use it as well.

    I didn't think it was, but you sound like you know more about that then I do.

    Dan
     
  19. atmuscarella

    atmuscarella Well-Known Member

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    Looks Like LG is saying their 2011 TVs can not take advantage of the new Adobe Flash/Air software because of hardware those TVs have to use Adobe Flash Lite. Their 2012 TVs will have hardware that can utilize the new software.


    Combine that with the article that sbiller linked to in post #12 and it really makes me believe we are in for a TiVo hardware refresh fairly soon.

    brentil: Could this new Software release 16 actually be for an updated DVR and not the Premiere?

    Thanks,
     
  20. brentil

    brentil Member

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    If you dig through my v16 thread you'll find that I found in the code references to the Gen07 devices (Premiere), along with 2 new Gen07 code names (Gen07C-Gimbal & Gen07P-Picasso) which after doing some Twitter digging I found were the new Elite/Q & Preview. There are no references to a Gen08 device which would indicate a hardware refresh as every hardware refresh has been a new generation.

    The changes I'm seeing in the v16 code look significant enough that those alone could provide us with solid performance updates from better threading, system utilization improvements, and improved graphics performance. However this does not change the fact that the hardware can only support what Broadcom adapts to work with it. I'll dig in the code too and see if I can find any references to Flash or Adobe, but I don't expect to find it at the kernel level.
     

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