A humble request

Discussion in 'TiVo Underground' started by Gunnyman, Jan 4, 2006.

  1. Jan 4, 2006 #1 of 21
    Gunnyman

    Gunnyman Just a boring dude

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    Some of you guys have seen the Son of Sleeper thread over at DDB.
    Please Please Please let it go. Don't respond.
    Rbautch and I will NOT respond to that thread because we have vowed not to discuss the Zipper over there not even to defend ourselves.
    Thanks
     
  2. Jan 4, 2006 #2 of 21
    bnm81002

    bnm81002 New Member

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    "standing Up And Clapping My Hands Over Here For You Guys"
     
  3. Jan 4, 2006 #3 of 21
    slydog75

    slydog75 Not all that sly

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    ARgggh Gunny.. IT's just a discussion thread,.. Can I PLEEASEEEE defend you just a bit?! I won't mention any names or even the zipper.. just generalizations of why guides and scripts aren't as bad as many think they are.
     
  4. Jan 4, 2006 #4 of 21
    Gunnyman

    Gunnyman Just a boring dude

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    I have no control over what anyone says or does. I just know what I'm going to say and do.
     
  5. Jan 4, 2006 #5 of 21
    slydog75

    slydog75 Not all that sly

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    I'm weak, I"m so very weak!
     
  6. Jan 5, 2006 #6 of 21
    mikellanes

    mikellanes New Member

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    Good call.
     
  7. Jan 5, 2006 #7 of 21
    willardcpa

    willardcpa QUASI-OMNISCIENT

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    OK, it's gotten to be where it is really entertaining to read the DDB thread. It's getting down to "sophmoric" insults. :eek: See post #47.
    The proper way to read it is to mentally picture a 13yr old playground bully trying vainly to convince a growing number of dissenters that his way of ruling the playground should be the way it continues. For me the character "Butch" from the "Little Rascals" movies, when he is close to tears works best. :cool:
    It's tempting to jump into the foray, but much more entertaining to stand back and watch. ;)
     
  8. Jan 5, 2006 #8 of 21
    JJBliss

    JJBliss New Member

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    Neither Gunnyman nor Zipper are under attack and do not need to be defended.
     
  9. Jan 5, 2006 #9 of 21
    captain_video

    captain_video Member

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    I second that. The rank and file at DDB do not appear to object to the script itself but rather the ramifications that could ensue based on past experience with a similar type of script. Only time will tell whether this will even be an issue or not. Gunnyman and rbautch have done their best to keep the support questions here and we are appreciative of that courtesy. They appear to have gone to great lengths to honor the wishes of the hack developers by not including any of the hacks in the script itself. This keeps everything legit and above board and avoids any bad blood between the two factions.

    I see Zipper as nothing more than a tool to achieve an end result. It's only slightly more complex to implement than Sleeper's tivoscripts. The script itself, in its present form, is basically of no interest to most of us as we tend to be more hands-on and prefer to do things manually as it affords us more control over how the hacks are installed. I won't bore you with my philosophical views on the program since they would fall on deaf ears for the most part but, as they say, different strokes...

    Above all else, respect Gunnyman's and rbautch's wishes and keep all support questions here. Just remember to use this script for good instead of evil and everyone will be happy. Enjoy and keep the peace.
     
  10. rbautch

    rbautch User

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    It's true we don't need defending. Despite what you may perceive to be bad additutes on DDB, the guys over there deserve your respect for the fun hobby they created, and the incredible knowledge they bring to it. The no-nonsense "culture" at DDB is markedly different than TCF... that's fine, and that should be respected. Speak your mind if you must, but don't go on the offensive, and don't make it personal. Before you post, search through the ocasionally entertaining "sewer" forum to find many similar debates that have occured before. Chances are somebody already said what you're about to say.

    I know how simple it would be to make future hacks not work with Zippered Tivos. It won't come to that, because we'll always respect the wishes of the authors of the hacks. Those authors have every right to defend their work. We do this because it's fun, not for profit or to be "glory whores".

    The adjective(s) used to describe the Zipper also need no defending. The Zipper is an extremely simple script that manipulates a few files. IMO, the real (and perhaps unnoticed) value of the Zipper is in the enhancement script that's bundled with it, which actually contain several scripts and a few thousand lines of code that customize the crap out of your tivo. Even experienced hackers have expressed appreciation for it, especially after they fubar a tivo or buy a new one for the kid's room.

    Finally, here's my request: be nice, be respectful, and don't fuel the fire.
     
  11. Scott D

    Scott D Active Member

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    May I also ask why they are so offended about setting up some sort of guidelines on how to install or use certain bits of hacks that they come up with? It seems to me that they create things but fail to give concise directions on how to apply it.

    You know me. I am not a computer programmer genius. If operating a TiVo was anything like doing a hack on it, I would stay far, far away from it.

    I take it the zipper is some form of a guided setup? I think I read something about it recently. I didn't go extensively into it. I'll check it out later. Sounds interesting.
     
  12. captain_video

    captain_video Member

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    They're not offended by it at all. Installation instructions for the various hacks are readily found in the discussion thread for any hack or with the readme files that are included with the downloaded files. As indicated, DDB members don't have any gripe with the Zipper program itself but rather the potential for its misuse. Any other issues they may have had with it were nipped in the bud by Gunnyman and rbautch.

    I think you're referring to the general dislike there for guides that lead you by the nose for hacking a Tivo. The feeling is that guides don't generally teach you anything about the hacks you're installing or the methodology and rationale involved. Anyone can blindly follow a guide and hack a Tivo but will they understand why it won't work if it breaks? DDB is above all a hacking forum for serious hobbiests and enthusiasts. These guys don't need guides to do the things they want with a Tivo and take exception when people complain about the lack of such documentation. Granted, locating info can be extremely perplexing but there are guides, links, and stickys that will point you in the right direction. You just have to realize that you should read them before posting dumb questions that have already been asked and answered countless times. It's like the proverbial child in the back seat asking "Are we there yet?" (you know, the ones you just want to reach back and smack upside the head). It's no wonder the level of patience with newbies there has dwindled drastically over the past several years.

    If you go there you are expected to have a certain level of expertise and experience. You are also expected to have a desire to do the work for yourself but there are always members willing to help you out if you get stuck with any hacks. The basic philosophy is that DDB helps those that are willing to help themselves. Don't go there and expect to be taken by the hand and have everything handed to you on a silver platter.
     
  13. Tracy RainH2o

    Tracy RainH2o Photo Man

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    AMEN !!!!!!! :up: :up: :up:

    The Zipper is very much, a time-saving tool. The real magic IS in the enhancement script.

    As for our friends at DDB, I have found them very helpful with a few tools listed on their site. After much reading and trying to resolve an issue myself, I was assisted by a junior member and one of the "top wolfs". Granted you may not leave with the same "warm & fuzzy" feeling you expect here at times. If you do your homework you will receive information in an accurate and concise manner.

    Let's all just agree to disagree on how to get there. I enjoy all the hard work that has been done by all those with more left-brain cells than me. As for those who profit of others hard work and do not support potential problems that may occur........:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

    Just my humble opinion.
     
  14. willardcpa

    willardcpa QUASI-OMNISCIENT

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    Real good analogy, I am glad that you brought it up. ;) Primarily because I feel that it reflects upon your "inner psyche".


    Now for a counter-point. The problem is that at DDB, the newbies do get smacked upside the head. :eek:

    A civil person would not smack a child upside the head, and an altruistic one wouldn't even consider it. :confused:

    That's the biggest "rub" vis a vis the percieved attitude over at DDB. Some have even described it as "They eat their young". :(

    Most that take exception to the DDB "attitude" do so because it exudes that type of behavior. Most feel that the proper reaction to someone who asks for help is to either offer them the help, or if indeed they are like "panhandlers" who fit the description in one of the DDB regulars signature that say something to the effect of "being just plain lazy", just ignore them. That's society's acceptable response to that type of begging without trying to help yourself - ignore them - otherwise there would be a lot of panhandlers being assaulted.

    And while I'm on a roll :p
    I'll take on the attitude that "DDB is above all a hacking forum for serious hobbiests and enthusiasts. " A forum is a little like a neighborhood bar, it takes on the personality of its patrons, and in spite of what the owners and management's desire is, it becomes known around the community not by what the owners and managers want it to be, but what it is. I am sure that there are many "biker bars" and "gay bars" that did not set out to be that way, but ended up being known as that. That's the case with DDB, sure the hard core want it to be a "forum for serious hobbiests and enthusiasts" but what it is known as is the place to go to to get information on how to hack your tivo, so naturally the newbies gravitate to it. I am sure that if somebody looked at the volume of hits there it is significantly the newbies looking for information.
    Reminds me of a Dennys restaurant that we had here downtown. The corporate culture of Denny's I'm sure is that it is "above all" a family restaurant that is open 24 hours a day, that incidentally puts up with the bar closing crowd in the middle of the night. But this one got to be a hang-out for the "gay crowd", everybody locally knew it, but apparently Denny's (locally anyway) hung on to the "family restaurant" ideal. Until word got to Corporate and then one night a corporate "suit" showed up to find out what was going on - within 24 hours the restaurant was permanently closed and Dennys sold the location. I only relate the tale as an example of how the "clientele" and community perception shape what a forum is "above all". Face it, DDB is a resource for anyone wanting to know how to hack their tivo, the only way to convert it back to one that is only for " serious hobbiests and enthusiasts" is to either shut it down entirely, or make it a members only forum that excludes everyone but the "serious". The newbies only "ask for it" when they post one of their moron questions in one of the development "sub forums", otherwise they deserve to be treated with civility, or ignored, not to have, as you put it someone "reach back and smack upside the head" :(
    Gotta go now, I need to get e-bay shipping labels printed for 637 "Zipper" CD's and off to Fed Ex. I have em as buy now for free, so as not to offend anybody, but do charge $30 for shipping. :p :D
     
  15. captain_video

    captain_video Member

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    I've been a member of DDB for quite some time now (4 years next month, same as here) and I've seen a major shift in the attitudes there since I first joined. It used to be wide open for discussion of most any topic and there was never a separation between the newbie crowd and the senior members, mainly because most of us were newbies at that point and all viewpoints were welcomed.

    Then came the crackdown by DTV on hacking sites. Although DDB didn't promote hacking the DTV side of the box they decided to start squelching any discussions of that sort so as not to arouse DTV's lawyers and keep the hounds at bay. They always operated on the fringes so it was a necessary step to keep the site in operation and still keep things within the boundaries of the law.

    Attitudes began to change with the arrival of one particular member whose name was a parody of someone you are all familiar with here and at the AVS Forums. I used to get into open flaming contests with him regarding his treatment of newbies and other members that were less in the know than himself. He eventually shot himself in the foot and is no longer a member there. Unfortunately, the fallout from his presense is still felt today.

    Perhaps the current atmosphere is partially a result of this individual's influence but I rather think it's come down to many of the senior members simply losing patience with the barrage of endless newbie questions that could have been answered with the use of the search function or a little reading. There are still lots of members that are more than willing to offer up help for anyone in need. The ones that get flamed tend to ask stupid questions, don't bother to search, lack total common sense, get belligerent when told they need to do a little research, or simply demand help because they should get whatever they ask for. Just look in the sewer section there and you'll find an endless supply of threads that got trashed because someone disliked the way they were treated and lashed out at the members there. I guess some people just don't realize that it isn't prudent to bite the hands that feed them.

    I don't personally condone "smacking them in the head" but there are many that come to DDB that are just asking for it. I've seen members there that used to bend over backwards to help out newbies that are now obviously starting to get annoyed with having to answer the same questions over and over again.

    One thing everyone should keep in mind is that when you go to someone's house you are expected to abide by their rules. When you complain that the rules are not acceptable to you then you can expect to be asked to change your attitude or leave. The same basic rules apply here, there, and every other public forum so why should anyone act surprised when they're admonished for not following them? If you don't believe me then just start up a thread here that discusses video extraction and see what kind of response you get from the mods. You guys just don't realize how much censorship this forum imparts on its membership whereas DDB is still more open to certain types of discussions that are totally banned here. Thing is, that's the way this forum is structured so I've learned to abide by it.

    We do our best to keep the format at DDB exactly what it was meant to be - a Tivo hacker's site for hobbiests and enthusiasts. If you think that anyone can come there and turn it into a "gay bar" because they think they can impart a different attitude on the rank and file then you should go elsewhere because it just ain't going to happen.
     
  16. Gunnyman

    Gunnyman Just a boring dude

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    How did this request thread become a let's dissect DDB thread?
    The two communities are different, very different.
    The only thing I'll add to this argument is this:
    So much of the info on DDB is outdated, disorganized, and dilutted that it is NO wonder people just ask their question without much more than a cursory search.

    The sleeper threads need to be archived, if not removed altogether otherwise people who use sleeper shouldn't be berrated. After all, all people did is search. They found info they needed and then stopped reading all the stuff that said "hey don't use sleeper, it's old killhdinitrd is much better."

    As for censorship here,
    the only things we can't talk about here are theft of service and extraction, that's 1 less thing than can be discussed at DDB.
     
  17. captain_video

    captain_video Member

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    I'm in total agreement with you on the theft of service issue but the extraction topic is a very broad one and the major reason many people want to hack their Tivos in the first place. Sadly, as soon as thread is started that discusses DDB it always tends to migrate towards the issue of how newbies are treated. If anyone doesn't like the way they're treated then they should just leave and not get into flaming contests with the mods, as usually tends to be the case.

    I also can't argue about much of the data being outdated. I will argue that it's not as disorganized as many would think. Many people complain about the way it's disorganized but when the question arises as to who would like to be the one to organize the site there don't seem to be many volunteers. I have personally attempted to take on the task numerous times with various FAQs and guides but quickly became overwhelmed.

    There are lots of sticky threads that point you to the latest hacks which anyone would realize if they took the time to look through them before posting. Just look at the number of threads that start with "I just bought a new DirecTivo and I want to know what I can do with it." I don't know how people like that find there way to DDB instead of here where that sort of question would be discussed ad infinitum.

    The fact is, many people still use outdated methods to hack their Tivos which is why the data is still there. We do our best to point these individuals to more updated ways of hacking their Tivos.
     
  18. Gunnyman

    Gunnyman Just a boring dude

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    If I could expect to be taken seriously I'd volunteer to help work on such a document. :)
     
  19. captain_video

    captain_video Member

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    I think they'd welcome you with open arms for taking it on and wish you the best of luck. ;) Your best course of action, should you decide to do so, would be just to do it and then run it by the mods to see what they say. I've offered up such things in the past but never got much of any feedback so I ended up posting it anyway. I would definitely not attempt to put together any sort of guide but an updated FAQ or roadmap, such as the ones I had done previously, or Cheer's roadmap would probably be what you should shoot for. I think a new FAQ is definitely long overdue but there is just so much info that would have to be pulled together than my several attempts went unfinished due to lack of time and expertise.
     
  20. Gunnyman

    Gunnyman Just a boring dude

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    yup
    then leave me in a corner by myself to slowly go MAD :D
     

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